Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You need to try active listening. Have you ever heard this? But what does it actually mean? And isn't it a little light on? Don't we expect more than just active listening these days? Well, that's what we're digging into today. Is active listening still relevant in today's world? And if so, why? And what are the benefits to a relationship? So make yourselves comfy as we get ready to dive into today's episode.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Hey, we're Kim and Roger and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should, we think about the future as a field of possibilities and we let joy be our compass.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house flipping business, we've achieved some big dreams and most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Hear conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts, and tales from our own lives as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: These are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfortable, whatever tickles you, pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: You today we are kicking off by asking the question, is active listening still a thing?
And this is such an interesting thing when we started discussing it, because active listening was such a popular term, I'm going to say 1520 years ago. And it was popular in the sense of personal development spaces. It was popular in the sense of the school environment, parenting tips, relationship tips. People often said, you need to practice active listening. And it sort of, out of all this, morphed in some way into something that was helpful, originally moved over to being something that was overused and not so layered or complex enough to be fully useful.
It grew into this idea, almost this cliche of itself, that it was almost just a naf word. Like if someone said to you, practice active listening, that will help you. People were like, well, that's not enough. That's not going to fully validate this experience. It's not going to get me where I need to go. And so we were thinking, is active listening actually still a thing? Is it something that's worthwhile in the relationship. Is there a point in telling people that it is beneficial and to practice active listening and how they can do that?
Well, I guess the podcast will unveil the answer to that, but that's a bit of background of where.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: That's why we're here, sweetie. That's literally why we're here.
This resonated a lot with me because, one, we do get a lot of couples coming up to us or talking to us or sending us questions online or just in general conversation when we say, hey, we're doing a podcast on relationships, teaching people how to become teams as a platform for them to achieve their dreams. And they go, oh, it's all about communication, isn't it? Communication is the problem, for sure, when, of course, really, the root cause of most issues are far deeper than communication, but it is a really important part of our relationship toolkit. Right? Our communication toolkit is a big part of our relationship toolkit because there are a lot of things you can do. And again, number two for me, I had read or been told this before, that if you've got a problem with your partner, the first thing you need to do is try active listening. Try actively listening to your partner. And when I heard it, I was like, oh, yeah, that sounds exactly what I need to do. But then when I actually went to put it into practice or had a deeper think about it, I was like, wait, what does that even mean? Does that mean, like, doing sit ups or jogging on the spot while I'm trying to listen? Do I need to bop around? Like, I actually didn't even know what it meant, and I think a lot of people still don't know what it means.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah, well, let's go through the history of the term, because I think that really helps to understand where the term came from.
It originally was coined by a couple of psychologists back in the. Those guys was Carl Rogers, and I'm going to focus on him because I think his perspective on psychology really helps people to understand and give a framework for the term active listening and how it came about. So talk a little bit about Carl Rogers first. Carl Rogers was a psychologist who developed a type of psychology called person centered psychology. And this was a really new way of working in the 50s. Basically, it offered an opportunity to change the power dynamic in the psychology room. So up until that point, traditionally, the psychologist had been in a position of power, and the client in the room, or the patient, as they often referred to them back then, was definitely dominated by the psychologist. They were considered the expert in the room, and it was their job to impose their interpretations and their techniques onto the client. So very much an imbalance in the dynamic there. And Rogers proposed in the 50s something quite radically different. He proposed that clients were, in fact, their own expert on their lives. And this was a really novel idea, because, of course, it started to bring about the thought process around.
If they're the expert on their lives, there's no longer this power dynamic that there was before, because there's two experts in the room, and they have their own expertise they're bringing into the situation. So that lens really shifted the way psychology sessions were undertaken, and it's important to understand. So thinking about it from that perspective, he was the first real psychologist to say, we want to let the client be seen for who they are, and we want to have them in this room as the expert of their own lives. So their reality, their perspective is what matters. That's what we're going to accept as reality of perspective. We're not going to dominate it. We're not going to tell them that they're wrong. It was a really interesting way of thinking and has obviously completely changed the way we work in psychology. And just expanding a little bit further on what else Rogers believed, because I think it really goes to what he meant when he said the words active listening. He believed a client should be engaged in the space. He believed in creating a space that the client felt supported without judgment from the psychologist. And this was a space where he talked about acceptance and understanding, being in the room. These are big terms. If we think about before this era, before the wasn't acceptance and understanding, it was diagnosis and dominance. So these were really different. These were terms of equality, that the psychologist and the client were on the same level, that they both brought things to the situation that could be beneficial, neither one better than the other. And when we understand this a little bit, we start to see just how layered the term active listening was for him. It was actually intended to be so much more than just sitting and listening. That's the what you are doing. It was actually intended to have a why behind it? Why are you actively listening? What's your intention behind it? And that intention was to be fully present with the person in the room, to sit with this person, to come to the conversation from a perspective of empathy, that is openness to their experience, compassion for their experience, and to come to that conversation without judgment. And what that means is to listen to this other person without saying, well, that's wrong, because I don't believe that or I'm judging you for that. That makes you a lesser person. You sit there and you just hear their experience with a perspective of compassion for what was happening or what is happening for them. And if we think that's what he meant in the psychology room, we can then take that and apply that outside. Active listening was meant to be just as he intended it in the psychology room, far deeper than just what you're doing, which is hearing what someone said.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: Yeah, you can see why it's so important. And for me, from all that information you just gave, sweetie, I sort of broke it down into active listening is, one, you can actually understand not just what the person is saying, but the meaning behind it. You can see the real them. And two, the person who is telling you this information feels you have understood them, feels you have seen them. It is that two way street. And I think underpinning this all is an acceptance of their reality. And I think as human beings, we all want to be accepted, don't we?
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think what you say there is really important, Roger, the understanding the person feels understood and validated, that actually means that you've engaged them.
Part of active listening, according to how Carl Rogers, the psychologist, intended, it was very much around engaging the person. So being there, non judgmentally, listening to them without judgment, without preconceived notions of how things should be or whatever else, allowing that person to just share their pure experience, but also engaging that experience. Asking clarifying questions, participating with feedback, being an active participant in that conversation, where neither one is more right than the other, you are trying to understand the other person's experience more. And as you say, as a result, the other person who is sharing has that ability to be seen and truly accepted in that space.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And while this was originally coined as part of a therapist and client or patient relationship, and it's used in medicine today as well, to make sure the right information is elicited from the patient, it's used in business to make sure, again, that a business can make the right decision because it has the right information from clients and staff and customers.
You can see how important this would be to a relationship after all the things you just said, you can see why this would be core to a relationship and why people would give this as advice, as maybe one of the first steps in a relationship, because I know I've heard the phrase before. The first step to communication is listening.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: Even as you're saying that it's one of those things when you're talking about the business and the medical world as well. We have to be so aware that the words that are coming out are not the only cues we're getting in that situation. And so by actively listening, by being really present with that person and feeling what's happening for them, getting a sense for their emotions, the depth of something, their body language will give you cues. That's all part of that, isn't it? It's saying, pay attention to everything, be fully present with that person in that situation.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: That's 100%. And if we want to get on the same page as our partners, if we want to communicate better with them, if we want to have a better relationship with our partners, you can see why active listening would be so important to a relationship.
[00:12:13] Speaker B: 100%. Let's have a look at that. Let's think about what some of the benefits in the relationship really are when we practice true active listening and move beyond that. Perhaps that more recent idea that it is just surface level, because as I've explained, it was never intended to be surface level. In fact, it was coined by just such a brilliant man who changed the whole way we engage in psychology and brought equality into the psychology room. It was intended to bring equality into the conversation to validate someone's true experience. And I just think with that in mind, thinking again about how we can use active listening today in a relationship is really important. So some of the things, well, firstly, let me just say this research tells us that more emotionally connected and intimate relationships have a higher likelihood of success. So we want to work on emotional connection. We want to work on emotional intimacy in the relationship.
And active listening can greatly contribute to emotional connection and intimacy. And I think it's a really important one to highlight because sometimes I think when people hear those terms emotional connection and emotional intimacy, they can feel a bit aloof. What does that mean? Is that a hug? Is that a what this is? Active listening is a straight up skill and strategy you can use in your relationship to build emotional intimacy. So that is an amazing hack. If you want to build emotional intimacy and have a more successful relationship, you can practice the emotional. Practice the active listening.
Some of the things that occur when we actively listen in a relationship, obviously, we've described the person, your partner, feeling seen and validated. But beyond feeling seen and validated, it creates a space of safety. It creates this beautiful sense of I'm safe, to be myself and share my full self with my partner. It also promotes in the moment, empathy. And what I mean by that is it allows a partner to clarify and be clear about their own experience. And intention. And this deeper understanding of what is happening for that individual can significantly build empathy. So if you're having a discussion and you're both getting fired up and you're thinking, why is this person doing this? If you stop and practice active listening together, more times than not, you will discover that it's come from a different place than you most likely expected. And that's because you have built the empathy through listening to what their experience actually is, what's really happening for them in that moment. And that also, the more we practice that empathy in the moment, the more we become empathic partners in our relationship. Ongoing. It shifts your perspective. When we're able to deeply share with a partner and have an empathic conversation repeatedly over time, we're conditioning ourselves, right. All of these skills condition us so that we seek a position of empathy in the future. When we have a disagreement or even just an interesting conversation or a tough conversation. When your partner is telling you something or sharing something that's really important to them, you can really start to naturally and more easily because you've practiced. Think about what's happening for them here, what is this experience for them? And really start to come into a position of empathy and again, build that intimacy through that.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And you can see how important that would be during a fight or a conflict with your partner.
Active listening isn't just for when you're having a mild conversation, a day to day conversation, or an interesting conversation with your partner. It's actually really key during fights. Because why are you fighting in the first place? Is it because you like conflict? Is it because you like fighting? I don't think most people do. Not at all. I think it's because you want to be heard or you want the other person to understand you. And when you've actively listened, the flow of information between two parties becomes much more succinct. The information shared gets understood by the other party. And not only that, you can start to find common ground a lot easier because you're not making assumptions about what that person is thinking. You're not thinking that person is just there trying to get angry at you for no reason. Because you're sitting there and listening to them. You're feeling empathy for how they might feel, and which means you're putting yourself in their shoes and you're sitting there going, okay, I can understand that. And they're hopefully doing the same thing for you. So you can totally see why this is so important in deescalating really tough situations like fights.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah. It's such a great point, Roj. And I think what you're saying about it's not just about understanding where they're at in that moment and offering that empathy, but also realizing that the direction you were going to head down might not be the best direction. It's giving you time and space to reconsider what your response would be in that situation as well. Right?
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And I think one of the benefits of this is if you do this enough during a conflict, you might find you have less conflicts in the future because you have more information about your partner. You understand them, you understand what it means. You've used active listening during a tough conversation, during a hard conversation, during a fight. And so the easy conversations will get a lot easier and won't escalate into fights. Now, I'm not saying you won't fight all the time. Kim and I fight quite a lot, but we listen to each other. We understand that when there is conflict, when there is friction, when there is an issue between us, it's because something's not right and we need to communicate with each other what that is and what the resolution each of us sees and then find common ground.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: Yes, this is the depths we get to. Usually there's a surface level argument, and the second we stop and say, let's sit down and talk about this, let's have a conversation. And we're creating that active listening space right there. And then we're saying, right, let's make it deliberate. Let's make the space safe. Let's take the time and focus on this conversation and be present in this conversation and bring empathy to my listening. When you're the person listening and have the space to be honest and open when you're the person speaking. When we do that, it deescalates the disagreement so quickly. And not just that again, it fosters that intimacy. And you and I finish with a hug and a kiss and an often and an apology from both of us, because we have built that empathy through that active listening. It is such a beautiful process in the relationship when it's used and ongoing. Once we practice active listening in a continuous way, in a consistent manner, it helps you just to become better communicators. You are naturally better. Like all these things, the more we practice them, the more easily they come. And it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. The more practice we have at things, the easier our relationship becomes at a faster rate.
That's one of the biggest benefits of learning skills, isn't it? Start. You've got that hard ramp up of learning, but it gets easier and easier the more and more you go through those processes. And I think becoming really good communicators, that is really helpful in a relationship. We talked about this at the top of the show. People really discuss the reason people come to us and say communication is their number one issue, or they think communication is the number one thing they have to work on is because it does bother people the way they communicate with their partner. We do it all the time, every single day. So becoming good communicators can be very beneficial to your relationship.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Yeah, you can even see through the things we were just talking about that this is actually part of rift and repair. So the rift is the fight. And in between, before you get to the repair is the active listening. It's one of the key ingredients of it. So look, we've talked about why it's important. We've talked about a bit of the history of it, and now we're going to actually give you some hints and tips so you can improve your communication skills on how to actively listen. So tip number one, be fully present during the conversation. I. E. No distractions. Put your phones away. Make sure the tv is off. Make sure you're away from the kids. Have the conversation in the right space. Remember, where you have the conversation is often just as important as what you're having the conversation about.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: I think that's a really important point because people would say that's ridiculous. It doesn't matter where you have the conversation anywhere near as much as what you're talking about. But the truth is, our environment really impacts our biology. If we feel like we're distracted by something or we can hear other noises or smell stuff, whatever our senses feed back lots of information to us. It can really impact how present we're able to be. So Roger's absolutely right. Pick a space where you can be fully present, where you're not getting distracted by other things and where you feel safe and comfortable. Don't sit on the stools you hate sitting on for the conversation.
That's going to require presence. That's not going to work. You're going to be annoyed by the stools. Sit in the chairs that make you feel comfy, that you don't have to think about, that you enjoy, that. Give you a sense of peace. Pick your space carefully.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: 100% okay. Tip number two.
When you're actively listening at the start, don't talk. This isn't just about you. And don't just sit there waiting to speak, actually listen. People too often listen, waiting to reply, as opposed to be holding the moment and trying to understand. As we said before, listening is the first step in communication. So don't interrupt your partner, even if they're saying something you feel is wrong, even if they're saying something that you disagree with or you feel is unfair. The start of the conversation is not the time. And again, this isn't a courtroom. You can't just put your hand up and go, I object.
In fact, you're out of order if you do.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: I think it really helps to perhaps think about why we interrupt.
It's about us. In that moment when we interrupt, we're saying, that doesn't agree with me, or I don't believe that, or you've misunderstood me. That is not allowing the person who's speaking to have their experience. That is not allowing them to just purely share what was happening for them. And that's what they're entitled to do. That's part of active listening. It's a core part of it, letting that person explain and share with you their experience, whether you agree with it or not. And that's why we say non judgment. Don't judge it as right or wrong. Just allow it to exist while they explain what was happening for them.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: And guys, don't try problem solve straight away. Listen to what your partner is saying. Remember what we said up the top of the show.
One, it's about understanding what they actually want and what they need, not just what they're saying. And two, showing them that you understand and that they've been seen and they've been heard. You can always get into problem solving mode later on in the piece once you've listened and had a full conversation. But right up front, you need to validate them.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think one of the tips in this is to ask open ended questions to get engaged in the conversation without assuming you know what they're saying. They may say something and you think, oh, I know what they mean. Well, just clarify and make sure that you have understood that the way they intended it. Because sometimes we go down a path and we're so sure of it because to us, it makes the most sense to the other person. It doesn't make sense at all. And that's when you'll hear those responses like, no, that's not what I meant. And I love when I hear that from Roger, because it means, okay, now I'm going to get to the guts of it. Now I'm going to find out what he really meant.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And so while up front it's important. You just sort of stop and listen. After a while, they'll probably start to look at you and like, are you going to engage? And that's when you do ask these open ended questions. I think they're really important. Another tip is pay attention to your body language and your partner's body language. I think a great idea is to be front onto them so you can watch for the nonverbal cues. Try to give eye contact. Now, that doesn't mean stare at them. And some people are really uncomfortable giving eye contact, but a glance up every now and then can really help. If you feel comfortable nodding, smiling at appropriate times, as in, at least don't scowl, don't have an angry look on your face, and don't have that look on your face. Like, I don't want to be here, or I'm just waiting to have my say. And as a part of that, watch your reactions as well to what they're saying. Try to keep a more impassive face. Not every time they say something, shake your head or throw your hair back or put your hands in your head and things like that.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: I'm just going to put a neurodivergent lens over this because it's really, really important. I think the tips you've given here, Rodgie, are great for a neurotypical person who traditionally might enjoy the front to front interaction and might be happy with the eye contact, but that's not true of all people. Certainly our neurodivergent community often don't make eye contact naturally. It's very intimidating. So that's not going to help them to feel seen at all. So certainly these are tips Roger's making. I think that apply more to the neurotypical community, but we definitely aren't saying this is the best way to do it. If you feel comfortable giving eye contact, give eye contact. If you feel comfortable facing each other, do that. But if you feel comfortable sitting side by side, do that. If you feel comfortable not looking at the person, do that. Sometimes hard conversations are very hard to be physically in the other person's face, to be right there in that moment with that person, because you are dealing with a lot of big emotions in yourself. So do what works for you in that space.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah, be mindful of it, but you also don't want to be uncomfortable.
And there's something. A final tip, unless Kim's got another one, is that play back what they have said to you. So play back to them what they have said to you. I actually learned this in business in my first year at Deloitte in consulting to make our clients happy, one of the first things I was taught was to show them that you've understood the assignment. To show them that you've been listening to them, to show them that they're going to get their money's worth, is take it all on board and summarize it back to them and say, is this what you meant? And there's a couple of benefits to this is one, it keeps the client happy, or the person sitting in front of you, your partner. Two, if you go in with approach knowing that you're going to play something back to someone, you actually are more likely to go, oh, I've got to really understand what they want, because if I'm going to play it back to them, I want to make sure I get it right. To show that I have been listening.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: I think there's two things I'd say about that. One would be, don't just play it back without having asked clarifying questions. If you just parrot something back to someone, it's invalidating often, and it's definitely not deep enough. You're just parroting back words. So make sure that you've probed in an interested and curious way, in a way that isn't full of judgment. Don't put some sort of intonation on the way you talk and when you say something, say things with openness and curiosity and try and learn in that space. Active listening can really change your relationship. This is gold, guys. If you practice this with your partner, your relationship will improve. I can 100% guarantee that.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: That's a Kim and Rogers guarantee.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: I just think what a joy to think. People say so often to us how hard relationships are. If you practice this consistently, your relationship will get better. And it's not that difficult. Once you've practiced and taken the tips and the strategies we've given you today to build your skill set up. It is a skill. Just practice it. You'll get better at it. It'll get easier. So that would be my first caveat was make sure that you've actually engaged. And that's why I say the questions, because how do you engage someone? Open questions are a really great way to engage someone and let them know that you are participating and you'd like to know more. You want to understand what's happening. You might not get it right with the first question. You might be a little off base, but that's okay. You're working together as a team to work that out and make sure that that person feels understood. And the other thing I would just say is, in that process, make sure you validate their feelings. So if you want to play back something that they've said to you, if you want to make sure that you've understood it properly, don't skip past the part that says, I hear you when you say that, I see that this is upsetting to you.
I see that this is important to you, that this really matters to you. I see that this has landed really hard for you. These things are important. We want to be seen. We want to be validated. We want to know that someone cares about the fact that we're struggling with this, or this is heavy for us, that we don't have to carry it on our own. And again, this builds emotional intimacy. When your partner says to you that they see you and that they understand how important this is to you, that is incredible for the other partner that makes you feel so safe and so valid as a person, and it takes weight off your shoulders and you build that emotional connection and intimacy.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: I love that. Kim, so what was your gold nugget out of today's conversation on active listening?
[00:30:02] Speaker B: I think the gold nugget for me is stay curious. In life, when you have a term or an idea or a concept that you might think you understand, stay curious about it and learn more about it, because there are wisdom and nuggets in all sorts of parts of life, all sorts of learnings. And I think sometimes we close ourselves off to things because society tells us they've become naf or they're not very helpful or whatever it is. Do your own research. Find out if that's going to be beneficial to you. If you heard this term and you thought, is that going to be beneficial? Go and look it up. Google its origins and find out whether that works for you. Form your own opinion. So stay open to the importance of different information and different skills, because there are a lot of assumptions and things get mutated and changed over time. It's like chinese whispers. And sometimes there's some real gold in terms and information that people, for whatever reason, have decided to discard over time.
What about you, Roger?
[00:31:07] Speaker A: For me, my gold nugget is if you want to make good decisions in life, just like you would in business or anything else, and we do want to make good decisions in our relationship, is you need as much information as possible to act on those decisions. So listen. Listen to your partner to get that information. And then the second part is show them that you've listened, show them that you cared. That is the empathy part of it. So it's information and empathy.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: You're amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living the team life relationship insights and conversations, head over to Kim androge.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: And if you liked today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and will make us really happy.
[00:32:04] Speaker B: Until next time, keep on living the team life.
