Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: When we think about our purpose in life, many of us hope we will, in some small way, contribute to leaving the world and our fellow humans better than when we arrived. Well, our inspiring guests today, Penny Moody and Hugh van Kilenberg, can actually say they've already achieved that mission and they're not stopping there. These two have committed their lives and careers to making real change in the mental health space, and they've really struck a chord with the australian public. Penny, author of the trail blazing book the Joy Thief, and Hugh, founder of the Resilience Project and the Imperfects podcast, sat down with us to get raw and vulnerable about their own relationship. And in a nutshell, we discovered these two really do practice what they preach with a no holds barred approach as we dug into their lives. We hope you enjoy. This one was extra special.
Hey, we're Kim and Roger, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should. We think about the future as a field of possibilities, and we let joy be our compass.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage, and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house flipping business, we've achieved some big dreams. And most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Hear conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts, and tales from our own lives as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: These are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfortable in whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team lifestyle. So we really do appreciate your time because talking about relationships is really, really hard. We've noticed this when we first started. We were like, we'll get some of our friends on the show. And they're like, I don't want to talk about my relationship. Or they'd go, or actually, we're not in a great place. And you sit there going, are you serious? We thought you guys were, like, a great team, so we really appreciate you guys again being vulnerable and talking about your relationship today.
[00:02:12] Speaker C: Penny's happy to do it. I'm happy to listen to her talk vulnerably.
I look forward to listening to her.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: We'll kick off our little icebreaker. Okay. So, Hugh, if you created a superhero based on Penny, who would she be, and what would be her superpower?
[00:02:32] Speaker D: Oh, God, I don't want to hear this.
[00:02:33] Speaker C: So her name would be Emily. Empathy, and she would fight AI with her empathy.
Emily, Penny.
Penny. Not Emily. Her neural net. Penny is so deeply empathetic that sometimes I think to say, I was going to say to a detriment that probably doesn't quite fair, but when we watch something on the news that is quite heartbreaking, I am a little bit better at going, I can't. No, I'm not letting that go into my head, because that's just too upsetting. Whereas Penny, it will affect her deeply for the next couple of days sometimes.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: I'm with you, Penny.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: Yes.
She would have a cape and would have e on the back, and I also would grant her flying powers, because I think that'd be pretty cool.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: I love that. And, Penny, what about you, the superhero?
[00:03:41] Speaker D: Thank you. Sorry. I'm just getting a coffee delivered to me. Sorry.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Oh, I love that.
[00:03:46] Speaker D: Thanks.
Superhero for Hugh. Hugh would be Mr. Funny. No, you can't be Mr. Can you?
What would you be?
[00:04:09] Speaker C: He could be.
[00:04:13] Speaker D: This is hard to do on the fly, isn't it, Mr. Funny Pants?
All I'm picturing, I think this is because you've said something like this before on a podcast, is that you'd have your pants on your head because you're trying to make everyone laugh, because that's your superpower.
[00:04:30] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I think I'd prefer if something serious happens as well. I'd rather have Emily, empathy, fighting, battling, rather than Mr. Funny pants.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Mr.
[00:04:39] Speaker C: Funny pants.
Mr. Funny Pants also does not at all well.
[00:04:46] Speaker D: I think he's heroic because he flies into the know, not awkward, but most emotion filled situations with a lot of humor. And it often works. It sometimes.
[00:05:05] Speaker C: I conducted a post match interview with our two, so Penny's away at the moment. So they were starting to fight this morning, and I conducted a post match interview with them as if they were sportsmen and women, and it didn't work.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: It didn't work at got even more use.
Do you use humor then, Hugh, when you and Penny are having a little bit of a debate? Because that's one of Roger's great breakers. When I'm really fired up, it's like a cut through.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: I don't think so.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Mr. Silly Pants knows his boundaries.
[00:05:47] Speaker C: Yeah, Mr. Silly pants isn't stupid. He's just.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: So now we know Roger's superhero, a.
[00:05:58] Speaker C: Lot braver than I.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: So I just wanted to give our listeners, if they don't know, a little bit of background on you guys, if you don't mind, just when you met, I'll just give a brief summary so we don't spend too long, because I know a lot of people will know your backstory. But from what we understand, you guys actually knew each other as teens and reconnected as adults, and you went out on a date, your first date, which Hugh spent, from what I read, a lot of time prepping for, and picked the perfect restaurant, bar, table, everything, right down to the detail. You're very particular about where the seats faced, which really amused me.
And it came to the night, and Penny waltzed in and said to you, who picked this weird table? What a strange spot. We need to move.
[00:06:49] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Is that how it happened?
[00:06:52] Speaker C: Yeah, word for word. In fact, that actually surprised me, living back there, because I feel like we have similar taste in where to sit in venues, which is a strange.
But, yeah, I felt like back then, I felt like if you're elevated sitting on stools, it also made for better conversation. And I also like to be able to see everything that's happening and not have happening behind me. And so I'd found this spot, which suited me, and then I got there very early. It's the first and last time I've been early to anything, and it's the last time I've ever turned up before you to anything.
And, yeah, Penny walked in and said, this is a terrible seat. Let's sit somewhere else. And I went, yeah, it is so bad.
I actually hate this seat.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: But you did recover.
[00:07:42] Speaker C: No, it was our first date, but we'd had coffee about four or five days before it, and I think we both were like. I think it was under the false pretense of catching up to talk about what we're doing at work.
I don't know what Penny was thinking, but I was within about two minutes thinking, well, ideally, I spend my life with this person, but we'll just see what happens.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. And you also said that on that date that you did recover from the seat situation, and you went on to have, like, an eight hour in depth conversation over many cocktails. And I think you say that you fell in love in that time frame, which is super romantic. Do you know when you look back, what it was that moved you so quickly to feel so deeply for Penny?
[00:08:31] Speaker C: Well, this is not restricted to or exclusive to romantic relationships, but you also have this with friends as well. I think when you meet people. But I very quickly was immediately comfortable being 100% myself. I didn't feel like dating a lot. Certainly in my experience, had been almost like a performance, like acting to be what you thought the other person might like you to be.
Or, you know, people who are like, I might be a bit of that person tonight. I might be a bit of that person. I'll be a bit like this. But the second, I don't know what it was about Penny, but straight away she's a very good listener and very good question. Ask her. And a very. I don't know, it's hard to put into words what it was, but I immediately just felt like I'm 100% by myself here.
And that with a combination of her face as well.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: An important factor.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that because it's very decisive. It's like, this is the woman and I'm going to go after it. But Penny, did you feel the same?
[00:09:41] Speaker D: Did I? Did. I think Hugh has written about the fact that he didn't think I did. He thought I was a little bit more hesitant. But I think I left that catch up as sure as he was definitely bloody drunk. My God, after 8 hours of cocktail.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: I know that's always a good way to feel sure about anything.
It's so beautiful because. Yeah. Sorry, you continue?
[00:10:12] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. No, I think in sort of months or even years leading up to meeting Hugh, I remember vividly thinking, I want someone who can really make me laugh.
It's so important to me. And then he just kind of appeared and we were laughing that whole night. And so I think, yeah, Mr. Funny Pants was there from the get go.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: It makes sense that you would pick that for his superhero power then, because that's what makes him a superhero to you.
[00:10:50] Speaker D: Right? Yeah, totally.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: I love that. And I love what you said, hugh, as well, that around that being able to be 100% yourself, it's something we're really noticing when we talk to couples across the board.
The couples that all identify themselves as a full team say that they moved very fast to feeling very intense feelings and had really deep conversations straight up. And the common thread is this ability to be really vulnerable, which is just such a beautiful thing. We talk about vulnerability and the power of it. And when you meet someone you can feel safe feeling vulnerable with, I think that's when you know, okay, I'm good.
[00:11:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's very hard to put into words, but it's very much just the way that Penny made me feel, I think just that night, and I think I read somewhere about how I was reading about that the other way the other day. That's how we should be basing our friendships on is just how a person makes us feel, not what status they hold or not what.
It's hard. The older you get, you've got friends from when you're very young and you've got new friends, work friends of partners, and people pop up. And I think it can be hard working out because you've only got, especially with kids, you've only got small amount of time to dedicate to friends. And I was reading somewhere saying the way that you should work out how you prioritize is just the way people make you feel.
And that was certainly very quickly. Penny was just made me feel very good.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: I love that. I couldn't agree more with the friends thing. It is so hard when you have kids, but setting the boundaries, you want to fill your cup up when you get that rare chance to get away. And you start to realize, because you get to know yourself when you have kids so much better as well. So you get to know what really does light you up. I think when you're younger, you can get confused about what feels good. And when you're a little bit older, you really start to work out what leaves you feeling better and becoming a better version of yourself, even when you're there with that person, lights up ideas and you're having good conversations, and it's just different, isn't it? So, yeah. Finding pretty magic.
[00:12:58] Speaker D: It's so true, though, Kim, because I've tried to figure that out many times before. Like, why is it since having kids, that I've been more decisive on who I spend my time with? And I've always put it down to time, and that's definitely, like, a part of it. But I think you're right. I think it's like, so much of it is like, you do get to know yourself better because you have to. You have to self reflect so much more because you're making so many mistakes. Or maybe that's just me, but I think that's just summed it up perfectly for me. So thank you.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: No, honestly, just a reflection of myself. I think about it a lot because we're very strict boundary setters, which can really annoy some people. And we've had to navigate that, especially with our daughter, because she has such a high need for our time and for specific spaces and settings and things like that. So we've gotten really intense in this space, probably faster than most people since having her and I reflected on it. Exactly that. And I've just realized that it's taken a long time to get comfortable with it, but it is a reflection of myself. I've gotten to know myself better, and what really fills me up. And we can't afford to ever waste time with things that don't fill us up, because she needs so much of us.
So, yeah, you do get a lot.
[00:14:22] Speaker D: Makes a lot of sense.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. All right. I want to jump over to your book, Penny, because I got it here.
Such a great cover, by the way. I absolutely love the COVID art on.
[00:14:35] Speaker D: Oh, thank you.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Did you pick that?
[00:14:38] Speaker D: I would love to take credit for it.
[00:14:41] Speaker C: I thought you drew it. I thought that was your dream.
[00:14:46] Speaker D: I didn't even pick it.
Well, I had the final say on it, but it was the favorite.
But the editor. Anyway, blah, blah, blah. Boring. But, yes, it is a great cover. I was thinking for so long, I was like, if I actually had to do it, it would be a disaster. But how could I depict a thief of joy? Like, I would literally try and draw, like, a thief, the good old literal.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Brain in there with really bad professional.
[00:15:19] Speaker D: When I saw it, I was like, what? Yeah, that is amazing. So, no, I love it.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: It's very evocative, and the book itself is just absolutely incredible. It describes your experience living with OCD, your life with OCD ongoing as well. And it also has absolutely phenomenal expert insights, and I would say is really like a Bible. And it was interesting. I was talking to a girlfriend the other day, and she was saying, she loves you guys, and she saw your book, Penny, and she said to me, oh, I was going to buy it. And then I thought, it's not for me. And she said, and now I'm talking to you, Kimbo. I realize, of course it's for me, because I don't know anything about OCD, and whether it affects me or not doesn't matter. And I thought that was such a great realization on her part, because when we look for inclusion and we want the world to be more understanding, we need everybody to be reading these books, not just the people who might be thinking they have OCD or exploring it at the beginning stages or whatever it might look like. Yeah. So that was really nice to hear that. She was like, I'm going back to buy the book. But something that I was really loved in the book because obviously, we're in the field of relationships, was the way you two spoke about or wrote about how you navigated your illness as a couple, and I think when you met, correct me, I'm sorry if I'm wrong, that you actually were diagnosed with anxiety, not yet OCD, and you went through that diagnosis process, actually, with Hugh by your side, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what that was like in terms of the relationship. How did that sort of unfold, having this illness, sharing it with you, and going through the diagnosis journey together?
[00:17:05] Speaker D: Yeah, it was a big couple of years. Like you say, when we met, I had an inkling.
I kind of knew myself that it was OCD because I had read something that really mirrored my experience just not long before I met Hugh, but I hadn't kind of regained the strength to see another psychologist after a couple of bad experiences. So I kind of just settled on anxiety, which was what I'd been diagnosed with.
And, like Hugh was like when we met, I was also just so comfortable to tell him what was going on. And maybe I didn't fully, but I do remember very early on Hugh, maybe it was like a week or two into dating. Like, I remember telling you about the anxiety, and I felt very comfortable doing that, and I had not really done that in any previous relationships because I just knew that Hugh would be able to hold that information and not be judgmental and be supportive.
But, yeah, I didn't have, really, the language around the OCD part yet, and I wrote about it in the book. But not long after meeting Hugh, I felt so, so filled up with all the love hormones that I decided to go off my medication, which I'd been on, the antidepressants, which I'd been on for years, and that did not go well. I spiraled pretty quickly, and so I think that was really hard for Hugh and hard for me. And I think maybe it was after that that we started to talk in more depth about it.
What I do remember is finding a book called the man who couldn't stop, which is a brilliant book about OCD written by a british guy. And I remember reading it and then giving it to Hugh and being like, can you please read this? Because this will explain it better than I can explain it. And I think that was really helpful for Hugh to just understand it more. And again, this was before I was diagnosed, but I'm like, I think this is what I've got. And it wasn't long after that that I then got diagnosed. So we were sort of doing know. We were very much in it together, and I felt very safe talking to Hugh about what was going on to an extent, but because I didn't have the words and the language for it was still really difficult.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: I think that is such a great hint, though, for people potentially, or I don't want to lighten it more than it is, but using a book or some other medium when we don't have the words, because it can be so hard in those vulnerable spaces to, as you say, articulate or find the words, even when you don't even know fully yourself. You haven't had it labeled yourself. You haven't been given all of this language that comes with it yet. Hugh, did you find that book? Really.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: Did. Although. Yes, I did. But just reflecting on it now as Penny was talking, I feel like I probably would have been good at listening, and I definitely would have made it a safe space for. I do think I probably could have done more to help, like, more things to, like.
Penny was very much on her own as far as I need to find someone who can treat me with this. And Penny's dad helped her a great deal in that. But I feel like I probably could have done more at the time, as in, let's find out more about this, we'll do it together. And maybe I did say stuff I can't remember, but I feel like she definitely been a very safe space for me to share that with me. But I wish I had done more proactively myself to make life easier, as in find more resources or connect it with other people, or. I don't know. I feel like I was a little bit, not passive, probably undersells it a bit, but I could have been a lot more active in the whole process at the time. But we certainly talked about it a lot, and it was very new to both of us, that's for sure.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: So hard for a partner in that situation as well, because wanting to support someone is its own journey, isn't it? Trying to work out how to do that is a journey on its own. And it doesn't really have a guidebook, necessarily. There's a lot of information as you unpack, as Penny went along and unpacked what was happening for her, but then the supporting information for partners. When someone's suffering, something can be really lacking out there.
[00:21:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: And Kim and I find it our daughter's autistic, non speaking, and life's really hard for her. But we talk on this podcast about how hard life is for us. And, of course, as soon as we do that, as carers, you get a bit of a jarring sense of shame, and how dare we talk about it? Why should we talk about when every single day of her life is so much harder than any day we'll ever experience. She can't even communicate how she feels. Society really doesn't accept her. And yet, I guess drawing a small correlation, Hugh, is how do you acknowledge your feelings in this situation, knowing that Penny has it so much harder than you? But of course, you teach empathy and you've got to have a bit of self compassion for yourself. Right.
[00:22:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
I'm sorry you're all going through that. That must be incredibly challenging. How old is she?
[00:22:46] Speaker A: She's. Thank you. That's very kind of you. We've been on this journey since she was two.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: She was diagnosed very early. We've got a lot of support. It's been great. It's a huge load.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: But the journey. The last four years, we were living in Japan. She was diagnosed and we came home because she needed more support. And she was, too. It was an early diagnosis, but we pushed hard because we knew something wasn't right, and we knew not being in an english speaking country was going to make it harder for her. So the last four years has been a big learning curve for us.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
Your life goes down two separate paths. Right? So you had the life that you thought you'd have, and then you've got the life that you actually had. So you're in that constant sort of cycle of acceptance. Yes, this is our life. And then making the best out of that. So, yeah, our life did get harder, but we actually got a lot happier because we're more purpose driven. We're a great team. We doubled down on our relationship for the good stuff. All right, I'm going ahead.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: I'm already off happy parts of life.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Look what you've done to me, Hugh.
[00:23:51] Speaker C: How much harder has the relationship been like as a number on it or a percentage on it?
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Started interviewing us.
So good. No, the relationship. It's a great question, Hugh. It's a great question. And it's one of the reasons we started the podcast, because our relationship, strangely enough, is 1000 times better. And our relationship was already. We're very lucky. We've been together 22 years.
[00:24:18] Speaker C: Next year, 2002. Met at uni when you used to wear havianas.
Love it.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: Glad that detail stood out.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: But we doubled down on our relationship.
We had two choices. As soon as your kid gets diagnosed with ASD, the divorce rate doubles statistically.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: Right?
[00:24:43] Speaker B: And so you're sitting there going, okay, crazy. So you can choose to go inwards and accept the new path of your life, or you can choose to keep on trying to go back to how life was. We lived in a seco in the snow. We were almost living our dream life. But now look, we started flipping houses. We're doing a relationship podcast. It's a grind. Cost of living gets to you and all that sort of stuff. But at the same time we've got this safe spot. So just know Petty said she could open up to you fairly early on the relationship. Just like you guys could talk for 8 hours on your first date. It's like we can go and face the world together. We can see all the different doctors and specialists. We can go to the playground when the kids don't want to play with our daughter and the parents pull their kids away. We can do that because at home we've got this safety net and it just allows you to get the best out of life to launch from there.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: Yeah, a launch pad. Definitely.
[00:25:39] Speaker D: Beautiful.
[00:25:42] Speaker C: What have you found the best?
I feel like what I said wasn't a good thing to say then. I didn't mean to say I'm sorry. Because what's the best thing that people say to you? What do you find is the best response? Because I feel like I'm sorry is not the right thing to say. And that's just what I just said because I was sort of scrambling a bit. But what's the best thing to say?
[00:26:00] Speaker A: I love that you ask that and you never judge someone for saying sorry because they're showing compassion. And we're so grateful for people that even care. Some people just breeze straight past it because it's too uncomfortable.
Really. Ideally, someone would say, I would love to learn more about what it's like in her world because I actually don't know that much, which is the truth for most people.
[00:26:24] Speaker C: So important. Wow. Gosh, what a journey you guys are on.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah, we've been on a journey for sure.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: But, yeah, we're onwards and upwards. Right?
[00:26:32] Speaker D: Onwards and forward again.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Acceptance. We know our path and we've got a plan.
Thanks.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: I appreciate the fact that you guys acknowledge that. It's very kind.
Thank you.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: Inspiring.
It is inspiring. I agree.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Penny, how do you deal with the fact that your mental illness impacts you?
[00:27:01] Speaker C: Question.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: It's a big one.
[00:27:06] Speaker D: I think it's something I have to be reminded of quite often because it's something I do forget. Because when you do have a mental illness, you do go inwards and it can be very hard to acknowledge what's going on outside of you.
I think automatically it can sometimes be easier for me to think about the kids and how it affects the kids, and then I've got to be reminded. It's also very much Hugh who's affected by it.
Maybe not on a daily basis anymore, but still regularly.
I think one way that I've been reminded of it is just through doing relationship counseling. It's something that comes up quite a lot, and every time, I'm like, oh, what? I forgot about that. I forgot that this stuff that's going on in my head really does affect you. So I think that's actually been really helpful for me as a pretty regular reminder, and I think we just talk about it more openly. I think since I was diagnosed, it's been easier to talk about, even since writing the book. I mean, Hugh hadn't read any of the book until it was completely done. And then he read it over a couple of nights, and, I think, gained an even deeper understanding about what I was going through.
It was a similar experience when he wrote his book. To me reading it, even that was like, oh, it's nice to be reminded of what each other's going.
Um, but, yeah, I'd say relationship counseling has been huge for that.
[00:29:03] Speaker C: I don't think I answered the question from before Roger, which was the question to lead into Penny's, was, how do I deal with Penny's mental illness? And it's funny, I think I've only ever brought it up in counseling, just that it can sometimes have an impact on me, because the way the analogy I tried to, that I was told from a very young age with my sister, when she was struggling with her eating disorder, was that you have to imagine she has a broken leg and there's nothing she can do. She can't help, but she's got a broken leg, and my sister's eating disorder is now under control.
But when I realized OCD, I don't think I've ever said this to penny before, when I realized her OCD was going to be there in some way, shape, or form forever, I was thinking, I have to sort of treat it like she has a broken leg forever, which doesn't quite work as analogy for so many reasons, but there are times when. When I feel like saying, you know, this is having impact on me as well. But then I picture myself saying to someone, the broken leg, you know, your broken leg is impacting me at the moment. I know you just never, you'd never say that. So I kind of. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's sort of this analogy that I have lodged in my brain, but I've only ever brought it up at relationship counseling, I think. I hope I haven't ever.
And not to say there's anything wrong with someone who sees their part, I think it's actually a really healthy thing to do. Maybe I should say it more often. I don't know. It's a bit of a hard one. It's like there's not much you can do about it. I can't say, can you stop having mental illness? Because this is ruining my day.
You guys would probably know much better than us. There's probably a way of saying it in a much kinder way.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: It's hard.
[00:30:49] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: Look, I think what you're describing, both of you, at the core of it, is you do want to have an opportunity to talk about it, for sure. Finding the space where you both feel safe to do that can be really important, because sometimes at home, obviously, we have a different sort of level of expectation, and our sense of sensitivity to things can be heightened because you haven't necessarily created that safe space. And I can fully understand why. Going into a counseling session where you have built a safe space, you haven't got the children grabbing at you. You haven't got all the other external pressures on top of you can be a place where you can have those more vulnerable conversations. And we talk a lot about talking leading to talking. And I think you can start in the safe space where you know, you can do it with the help of someone as well. And you can always evolve from there if you want to. Talking about it in that safe space, evolve from there and say, I'd love to bring this in at home. What might that look like? Even asking that question at counseling can certainly be helpful beyond just bringing it in, because home has so much going on. Right? It's a complex environment. It's not a simple environment, and I think, particularly for parents, it's something. Another thing we sort of try to advocate for is when you want to have conversations as parents, get outside of the home space. It's just so on top of you when you're in the house, everything. There's never a moment when, even if you were in the kitchen by yourselves, you're looking at the dishes or you're looking at the school list on the fridge, and you're thinking, shit, I haven't ordered that yet. And you know what I mean, it piles on. Whereas I think for couples, getting outside of that environment can be super helpful to have those conversations.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: It's hard to leave a conversation when you're out of the house as well.
If you're going up for a coffee, it's hard to storm off. And that, well, if you're in your house, you're like, I'm heading to the lounge room. But it's true. If you're out of the house, if you're creating that safe space, talking is a skill. You got to learn it. You got to practice it. If you talk about the hard little things a lot more, then when the big hard things happen, you'll be better prepared.
[00:33:04] Speaker D: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think one thing I've gotten a little bit better at is if I'm feeling like the OCD is quite bad or I'm getting into a bit of a spiral, I'll sometimes say to you, that's just what I'll say. My OCD is feeling really bad today. And you'll always be very understanding with that, and I think you really appreciate it.
Just so you've got a heads up and you know that there's a lot going on in my head at that moment.
[00:33:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Because I do very much appreciate it because when it's bad for you, you find it very hard to be present, which is completely understandable. But I used to take it quite personally and think, she's not engaged in us or whatever. It's not working. Not, the relationship is not working, but this situation isn't working. And I don't know what I've done here.
Well, the other way I'd find out is if it was a complete spiral in a really bad place. And I'd think, how have I not known about this? How did I not see this?
Yeah. Now, you'll always say you'll let me know, and it's very helpful.
[00:34:11] Speaker A: That is so great to hear for our listeners, especially because it's such a small thing to say. And I know with my anxiety, I do the same thing with Roger. I say, I'm really struggling today. I'm going to need your support, and I can't get anything more than that out. But basically, don't load me up. Don't expect much of me. Give me as much comfort as you can. And just that one comment says to the partner, as know, you don't have to assume it's your fault anymore because we all make so many assumptions. Right, Hugh? That's what you're saying. Penny's taking the assumption away from know, saying, what have I done wrong? It's not me at all. She's just struggling today. And I know that once you just give that little bit of information.
It seems you both have such a clear benefit. And it doesn't have to be a huge amount of information either. Just a little heads up, as you say.
[00:34:59] Speaker C: Yeah, totally.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Penny, I'm curious. I have epilepsy as well and was diagnosed in my mid twenty s. It took me years to come to terms with that. Lots of rebellion. Obviously in your mid 20s. As you can imagine, alcohol and things aren't very good for epilepsy. So a pathway to acceptance.
It was, gosh, but long time ago now.
When I did eventually get to that place, it struck me that I actually found, I don't know whether you'd call it put it this way. The illness seemed to, at the beginning, just take from my life. That's how I felt. It had so much negativity in my life. I was identified myself as very taipei, very driven at work, and I was a long distance runner. All those sorts of things that you don't want taken away from you. And the illness did have an impact in all those areas. But once I came through that process of acceptance, I actually started to realize that there were some positives that I had taken from being unwell.
And it made me a more empathic person. It certainly built my resilience. It built my humanity, I would say. I all of a sudden started looking at others in a more whole perspective. And that's actually when I went back and did my masters of counseling because my whole perspective really shifted and I got a lot of joy actually out of the growth that I had. Are you able to see in yourself now with your OCD? Any positives, the positive side? Anything in that sort of space, or is it still sort of in that heavier, accepting time for you?
[00:36:45] Speaker D: No, I think I'm definitely more in that space of acceptance and seeing maybe some of the silver linings to it as well. Like you say, Kim, it took a long time, though. It took many years of resistance.
For so many years, I wanted to get off medication. It was such a thing for me.
I just thought, I want to feel like I felt before I was on medication. And I want to be able to do all this without medication. And if not, then I failed.
There was a lot of resistance there.
And I think also for a long time I thought, oh, well, this is with the OCD or whatever it was that I thought it was. I was like, well, this is like a hill that I'll sort of traverse and I'll get over and then I'll be done with. It'll be behind me and eventually, after getting the right therapeutic help and then understanding more about what OCD is, it just became easier to accept after a while. I think the more I understood it, the more I thought, well, this is something that's probably with me forever.
It'll take a lot of work to manage, but I can still thrive with it.
So it took a long time to see any of those positives. But I think, like you, Kim, I've been able to become a much more empathetic person because of the OCD. I mean, I think most people with OCD are pretty empathetic people. I think that's all part of the issue, being too worried about other people and thinking too deeply. But I think it does definitely remind me a lot that so many people since writing my book have told me they have OCD. Like, people I know who I had no idea before. And so it just reminds me on a daily basis, like, oh, everyone really is going through something.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:58] Speaker D: And I think it also.
I think a lot of people with OCD, or maybe with mental illness in general, can be very creative as well, and it's trying to funnel that creativity into something really positive rather than just like, it all spiraling in your head.
But I think it has turned into more positives than negatives for me.
I kind of actually can't believe I'm saying that, because five years ago, I would not have been there at all.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: What an amazing reflection to be in that space and say, five years ago, I know how that feels. Yeah, it's pretty special because I think the path to acceptance is so hard when life. It's really in my head because we've had it multiple times, obviously, with my epilepsy and then our daughter's diagnosis, where you have this road and it's like there's a fork and there's no going back, because you just can't. You can't change it. Life has fundamentally changed forever. And part of that acceptance is realizing there was never any going back. You had some hope at some point, in some way that life would go back to being easy or smooth or whatever you had in your head, but that is just not the reality of life. And as you say, what you do come to realize, yes, people have it harder than others, but everybody in some way comes to a fork at some point in their life and will have a path forward that looks different to what they imagined. And that path of acceptance, of coming to a place where you realize you can't go back. And this is the life I have. It takes time and you have to be so kind to yourself through that, and you're not usually really rough on yourself.
[00:40:49] Speaker D: Totally. So right. And I think what I've come to learn is that people with OCD especially, are so tough on themselves because they've believed the worst about themselves for so long.
And that's why self compassion is so vital in treatment for OCD. So vital.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: I actually think self compassion is the key to everything. If someone said to me, what's the key to life? I'd say, self compassion. Don't learn anything else. If you learn how to love yourself and be kind to yourself and treat yourself like a friend, you'll be fine.
Nothing will plague you, because you'll be okay with yourself. Like, the war we wage is in our head. It's not anywhere else.
It's an incredibly undertaught thing. As know. And that's one of the things I love with what you do, Hugh, with empathy, is empathy starts the fire of self compassion. Once you start thinking about others, once you get to it, like, for me, I see that as an evolution. You think about others more, and then you realize it's safe to actually start being compassionate towards yourself. That's like phase b of the evolution.
[00:41:58] Speaker C: The other thing I'll just say very quickly on Penny's book is the other thing we've noticed is a lot of people have been reaching out to say they didn't know what they had, and because of the book, they've discovered it's OCD. They had no idea and thought that they were, in their words. A couple of people said, I thought I was just crazy.
And so the other thing the book has done is helped people to realize what they do have. And I think that is an incredible. I think that's the gift that Penny is giving people.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: It's pretty extraordinary, 100%. And I think that's why I said before, you know that girlfriend that's going to go and buy the book now, which I just think is so awesome. I think people who see themselves in the book maybe have OCD, but not just OCD. This book really is about owning yourself, owning your story. Like, you've taken it back, and it's something I'm still working on. I know I edit my story when I tell people my story because some of it's too embarrassing or too scary to put out there, but you put it out there. And for me, it was like another step forward. I was like, man, if this chick's doing it, I can do it. Like, I can be more honest about who I am. And that's showing that vulnerability. You're giving people permission to do that. It's pretty powerful.
[00:43:09] Speaker D: Thanks, Kim. That's so lovely to hear. As you would know, there have been many times where just before the book came out, I was like, oh, no, I want it redacted.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
How much do you got redacted? Just 90%. That'll do.
[00:43:25] Speaker D: Yeah, that's fine. Just most of it.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: Well, that seems to be the big thing for you guys.
You get very vulnerable, but, like, almost extreme vulnerability. And you use that, as I say, well, if I can do this, if I can sit up in my books and say, this is what's happened to me, this is how bad things have got for me. And these are the feelings that I have, which no one would actually probably admit at the pub with their mates or over tea with their girlfriends. I'm sorry. I didn't say pub with the girlfriends as well.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: Stereotype.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: But it's opening that door, right? And that's what we're trying to do here with relationships. It's like, Kim and I do actually try to say that the first ten years of our relationship, it was really tough. The last ten years is a lot better. We have episodes where we talk about the fights we've had. We talk about the feelings we have, and you guys do that. And I think the more vulnerable you get, the more people find accessibility. Accessibility is key.
[00:44:26] Speaker C: Really?
[00:44:27] Speaker D: Yeah.
It's funny you say that, Roger. I don't think we ever set out to be really vulnerable. Well, I don't think I did, anyway. But it's definitely modeled. It's what you see, isn't it? I just had this memory as you were speaking of my parents telling me at one stage that the first year of their relationship was the hardest. And that's the year that sometimes people think is the honeymoon stage is meant to be the happiest time. And I was really blown away by that. But that kind of level of honesty then became quite normal to me, I guess, after hearing that. So it's really important what you're modeled.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: Couldn't agree more. And I think you don't have to have it modeled from. That's so beautiful. You had that, but you don't have to have it modeled from home. You can read it in the books, hear about it from other people on a podcast. And I think the beauty of this more accessible world, there's lots of downsides to the Internet, for sure, but I think there are the opportunities in terms of mental health, growth awareness, support for individuals it's just unbelievable with the Internet, because a lot of people were really left alone before they could search what.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: They need to be able to go.
[00:45:48] Speaker C: It's not.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: Oh, God, it's not just me. I'm not alone. It's like the kid in the class who puts his hand up and asks the stupid question, and every other kid sitting there going, oh, thank God he asked it right, because I was sitting there, I didn't know what that was. And that's what we're all doing here. We're putting our hand up and asking stupid questions or saying stupid stuff, and everyone's like, oh, cool. And maybe next time I'll be the kid who's a bit braver to put my hand up.
[00:46:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
Another area you guys got. I just want to jump out of this to one more thing, if we can, before, because I know our listeners love to hear on this, was, you guys have spoken on the imperfects about using the fair play cards, which I just quickly, for anyone who doesn't know, are a set of cards that allocate household tasks, but really labor that's unpaid.
And the premise behind them is obviously to make the household more fair. Not necessarily equal, but more fair. And I love that episode. I think so many people can benefit. A lot of our audience talk about that stage of life, three under five or three under six, that early years being the most painful in their marriage, and they're really struggling. It's a really trying time. Obviously, you've got less resources, you've got higher demands on your resources, and you assume new roles, which you've also like. People got to realize that couples, the husband and wife, now partners, have to navigate those new roles together, which is really hard because you're already in a difficult patch, because you're stretched for resources.
Obviously, you guys described having benefit from making things more fair, so dishing out the tasks more fairly. But Roger and I were kind of curious. Did you guys experience any other benefits now that you look back to just sitting down and actually making the time to talk about the division of labor and your relationship and the household in general?
[00:47:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, the thing that I've said quite a few times, and that episode with Penny was, thanks to Penny, was, it turned out to be, which is a great thing for relationships in general, but that episode was officially the most shared episode of any podcast in Australia, 2023. Yeah. So it clearly struck a chord with a lot of people, but probably a lot of women who then shared it with their husband, probably what is so shared.
But my big fear was that men were just going to hate me and hate the fact that we were pushing this. But I haven't had any negative feedback from any men who've done, even men who I thought would. It just makes so much sense. I think the main thing for me is I think it's helped us become more organized. Penny's really organized. I'm not an organized person. That causes issues in itself in our relationship, especially when I take the towel from her bathroom and don't put it back. But I have found very much that it's helped us to be more organized. It's like you've just got a better game plan for how you're attacking.
A much better game plan for how you attack the things around the house that no one really wants to do but have to be done.
[00:48:53] Speaker A: I think it's such a good word, and we try to talk about it here with different analogies, but organized, right. The house actually needs to be organized as well, and we sort of forget that it's its own system, it's its own unit that needs.
[00:49:07] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. Totally.
[00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So, Hugh, on that note, in the resilience project, you talk about emotional literacy, and yet what I noticed is in that episode, you actually referred to cricket to get context of what being a team in a relationship was. What's so powerful about, for you, a guy, a sporting analogy, when you literally teach emotional literacy, that made it more real for you that you could say, hey, maybe I do need to be more diligent as a teammate in my relationship just because, I mean, because I.
[00:49:43] Speaker C: Coached for so long at a pretty good level. And the amount of time I was a in when I was coaching Melbourne University Crick Club, I was definitely putting more time into coaching my cricket team or cricket club than I was as a teacher. It was just the amount of you put so much preparation to everything. Every player you're playing against, you know everything about, you've got a whole document on every opposition player and what their strengths and weaknesses are, and then you plan for the weather, and then you have your own match plans and you have your own game strategies and within different. You just put so much effort into it, you're prepared for anything. And I've joked before about how I'm always late. I was never once late for cricket, and I was always there very early for cricket. And I was always night before laying out all my clothes, packing my bag, the night before all this kind of stuff.
And yeah, nothing too much apart from my ability, really stumped me playing cricket because I was so prepared for everything.
So I know what it's like to be extremely organized and extremely prepared in a certain area of my life. And when it just dawned on me that we were like, we, to use a creepy analogy, we were very talented as a couple, had a lot of talent, but I probably wasn't doing the preparation. I was not taking the game seriously enough. I wasn't preparing enough for the games.
For whatever reason, that just worked for me.
I still struggle with the fair play stuff, like, just literally on the way into the car to come here, I walked straight past the letter box and didn't get the letters out. That's my job. And for some reason, I was, like, someone older, unless it'll get done.
So it's not perfect. I mean, I'm not perfect, and I've got a long way to go with it, but we are definitely a lot more organized.
[00:51:28] Speaker B: Yeah, we do always say, like, in what other collaborative context in business and sport, do you not put the team first? Do you not come together and work to it? And the number one team in our lives, our relationship, we can often take an individual focus, or we can focus on the kids, and we don't think of the husband and wife team or whatever. Wife and wife, husband, husband team as its own unit, as its own entity, the relationship having its own being. And once you do, you know, we know Penny and Hugh. We are Kim and Roger. This is us. Then you can actually prioritize it. You can focus, you can schedule know, it's just that mindset shift, so petty. Have you seen a bit more of a mindset shift in the team space, not just in organization and draws, but how you guys are, I guess, living day to day with each other or talking to each other.
[00:52:20] Speaker D: Yeah, I definitely have. And I think one thing that we try and do as often as we can is we try and do it on Sunday nights. Doesn't always happen, but is talk about how we can help each other, what we can do for each other throughout the next week, that will be helpful. So what I can do for Hugh to make his week easier and vice versa.
And I think that's been a really nice thing to kind of be aware of throughout the week.
But, yeah, I've definitely noticed a shift. I mean, even just like, it kind of might seem like a little thing for Hugh, but the other night he was doing a race, he was doing a running race, and I was taking the kids in a little bit after he left to watch it.
And then when he'd left, I'd realized that he'd packed all the food for everyone before he'd left, so I didn't have to do it. And just things like that, it's like, oh, just takes the weight off my shoulders.
[00:53:25] Speaker C: You guys can absolutely feel free to chop it up.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: Did you want to throw the word God in there or something, Penny?
It's such a beautiful thing, that support system. And something that struck me as you were both talking, we talked to another couple the other day who described each other as being generous and that being one of their strongest skills. And I just think what you're describing there where you're saying for the week, we ask each other, how can I make your week easier? That's that generosity in the relationship. And I thought when we heard this other couple saying it, I thought, I'm going to steal that. I think being generous is actually really powerful in a relationship.
[00:54:14] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely.
But just quickly going back to the sports analogy stuff, what astounds me is that before we had Benji, our first child, we didn't actually sit down and talk about how is this going to work practically in terms of who does what? I wish so much. I'd found that book and those cards before we had Benji. Not that it was ever too late, but I just think it would be such a good thing to do at that really early stage before it sort of just falls into this routine that you might not want or that you might not have expected. So sometimes it astounds me that we didn't do that. But I think so many people don't.
We're not taught to.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: I think most couples don't. And you talked about being deprived by default. Right. But something you actually also talked about, you made a joke about, well, why don't we go down the local pub like you do with your cricket team, Hugh, and have a bit of a review of it was, but 100%, you should. You should be going down the local pub or for coffee and going, what worked well this week? What didn't? What do we have to do differently in the future? What do we have to do to get better? But I also say it's like when you get married, people are like, good, done. But no, the wedding is the start line. So I think it's really cool that you've got 2020 hindsight. We all do it, but you're 100% right. And any young couples listening to this podcast, hopefully they can take a leaf out of that book.
[00:55:52] Speaker C: We're kicking off our strategic vision through his earnings project for 2025 26 27 at the moment, and it's going to be hours and hours and hours and hours of conversations and discussions and planning the vision for the next three years of the business.
We were doing this, and I was actually thinking this would be an amazing thing to do as a couple. Like coming with a strategic vision. You're three years with a whiteboard, and.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Just like, do you want to see our whiteboard? It's in the room behind us.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
We've got a five year relationship plan. Five years strategic vision mission for Kim and I, because this is what we used to do in our corporate careers.
[00:56:29] Speaker D: Right.
[00:56:30] Speaker A: Our two pillars in the business are become a team and then chase your dreams. So you become a team, so you can chase your dreams and live the life you really want to live with your teammate side by side, because you're the most powerful asset you have. So you're 100% right. I think that we've just missed this in society somehow, and it's a legacy, I'm sure, of sort of outdated norms and things like that, but I think this space is going to change a lot in the next sort of.
[00:57:00] Speaker B: And when you do have a common purpose and a common vision, all the little things in your life, all the fights, all this, that the other, you sort of can walk past them a bit easier because you're like, wait a second. We've got a five year plan. We know where we're going. Or if someone down the street buys the new house, the new CX five or whatever, you're like, wait a second. We decided not to spend money on that because we have a five year plan to go get a hobby, farm.
[00:57:25] Speaker A: This, that, the so on, that vision thing as the one last thing, I just really want to know, because something that Roger and I were talking about, you two, is the fact you both have incredible missions in your life. It's very clear that you are working for a really meaningful life. You're going to leave a legacy behind, which is amazing.
Something we're really passionate about is doing work that's meaningful for the world, not just ourselves. Purposeful work. How do you guys manage to align and find a shared purpose, given you both have such strong, individual, purposeful work?
[00:58:03] Speaker C: Ready?
[00:58:11] Speaker D: God, I think they're just.
Oh, gosh. It's a brilliant question.
I think they are so aligned, they're so similar. I think. I think it's only recently for me, though.
I feel like I've just been searching for the last, I don't know, five or six years searching, trying to find out what I should do, what I need to do. I kind of feel like it's only in the last year or two that it's become a lot clearer to me how I should do that. And I've been cheered along by Hugh the whole time. I think that's been the key to it, is that he's never once said to me or tried to steer me in any direction. He's never been like, you should do this, or you should do that, or you should focus more on this. It's just been cheering me along, helping me to find out what it is. So I think it's just that we're each other's greatest cheerleaders, I think, and our values are very much aligned. I don't know if that's a terrible answer.
[00:59:31] Speaker A: That's a perfect.
[00:59:37] Speaker C: I was going to do a cricket analogy again. Do it for it.
When you see in a partnership, when they're batting together, two people are batting together and they're doing the same thing they do at the other end, though, and they come together with six balls and have a quick chat about it, and they're kind of very encouraging to each other and just go, that was a good shot. That was a great shot. Well done. Thanks. What's happening other end? Oh, this guy's turning it a bit. You should do this, do that. Okay, cool. Thanks for the advice. And then you come back and congratulate each other. There is six balls.
[01:00:05] Speaker A: I always wondered what they were saying, Hugh.
[01:00:09] Speaker C: Yeah, they're usually being quite complimentary of each other and offering advice if there's someone struggling with something, but just sort of, it always ends with a pat on the back or a pat on the bum. And just good stuff kept going, basically. That's kind of always ends. Good stuff kept going. That's how it always ends. And I feel like for us, it's a bit like we're both in a mental health space. There's different areas of mental health and different ways of approaching it. But I feel like we're often saying good stuff, keep going to each other.
[01:00:41] Speaker B: You're amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
[01:00:45] Speaker A: Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living the team life, relationship insights and conversations, head over to Kim androge.com where you can find all the show notes as well, tons of other relationship goodies.
[01:00:55] Speaker B: And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and it'll make us really happy.
[01:01:03] Speaker A: Until next time, keep on living the team life.
