Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: In relationships, it's easy to fall into the trap of keeping score counting. Who does more chores, who spends more time with the kids, or who provides more emotional support. But when relationships become transactional, with each partner focused on getting their fair share, it starts to create a division rather than closeness. In today's episode, we're talking about the concept of radical generosity and how it can help shift your relationship from competition to collaboration. Join us as we explore how embracing a team mindset can strengthen your bond, allowing you both to thrive in times of scarcity. We'll share practical strategies to break free of the scorekeeping cycle and build a relationship where both partners feel valued, appreciated and fully supported.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Hey, we're Kim and Rog, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should, we think about the future as a field of possibilities and we let joy be our compass.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house flipping business, we've achieved some big dreams and most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Pick conversations from, inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts, and tales from our own lives as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: These are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfort in whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
So we're in our new podcast studio and today we're talking about the idea of radical generosity.
And I love this concept.
It's really a mindset. It's an approach to a relationship where everything you do is about doing it for your partner, doing it for the relationship, as opposed to just doing it for yourself.
Although the idea being that if you do things for your partner, if you do things for the team, you will get it back in spades, as the team does better, as your, your partner appreciates what you're doing and as you start to grow that team mentality and.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: That team culture, yeah, we're going to look at it through the lens of it being more of an antidote to a very common problem that we see in relationships and we'll get into that in a minute. But the opportunity is there, even if you're not having this problem that we talk about today, to really bring radical generosity into your relationship, to level it up, really, isn't it?
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Yeah. That's what we're all about here, you know, when we talk about the team life, the team life isn't just about solving problems. It's about living your best life, becoming a team so you can live your best life.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Yes. I think that's such a good point, Reggie. It's. It is. We are definitely focused on not just making the relationship bearable, not the bare minimum. We're talking about making it the very best. Living the life you dream of living the life you, you imagine for yourself. When you think about what if. What if I had this? Or what if I thought like this or did this? Or what if I committed to this, actually having that life day to day? And I think radical generosity is one of those really brilliant concepts where it will take you to that next level in your relationship. And as I said, we're going to talk about it through the lens of it being an antidote to a specific problem. But if you hear this and you think, I could just. I don't really have that problem in my relationship, but I could use this as a level to. An opportunity to level up. I think it is a brilliant way to move your relationship to another level.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a real needle mover. And I think we're trying to get from survive to thrive. And so you might not feel like, oh, Gee, my relationships on the, on the skids, but there are problems wherever, when, where we're not able to optimize. I want to be a team. I love my partner. Things are okay, but how do we get to that thrive? How do we level up, as Kim said, and so that's what we're going to talk about today, is how do you level up using radical generosity and when you might do it. And I guess the issue, I guess with the problem we are going to talk about today, which is very common and very common in just the everyday Joe and Jane relationship, is Joe and Jane. I assume they're a couple. I assume there's a Jo and a Jane out there. Or is it George and Jane?
[00:04:47] Speaker B: Or isn't it like John and Jane?
[00:04:49] Speaker A: John and Julie.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Oh, John and Julie. Yeah, that sounds right.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So the key issue we're going to talk about today is keeping score in your relationship. You know what I mean? Here. The tit for tat, the quid pro quo, when couples fall into a me versus you mindset. And you can see why this would happen, right? Because we live in a world of scarce resources, and we, Kim and I often laugh at what did we do before we had kids? Like, we always seem to, like, feel like we never had any time. And look, now we've got a kid running a business, got a mortgage.
You're trying to squeeze, squeeze every last minute out of life. And of course, when that happens, you get very, I guess, clingy to your own time and resources, and you start thinking, well, you know, I'm just barely getting on, getting by of what I need to do.
I don't have enough time to do all the things I want to do. And so my time is very precious to me. And, you know, maybe my partner doesn't appreciate my time, maybe my partner, I feel like my partner takes my time for granted. And so I need to start carving out more time, whether it be around household tasks, whether it be around time with the kids, whatever. I've got to make sure that I have enough scarce resources individually to do what I need to do to. Just to get by.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah. This can be quite an insidious issue in relationships because it can be, as you just described, rog, which is really that I need to preserve my own resources and make sure that I'm getting enough. But it can also be something that I think you and I experience is that other person doing enough, and this sense of, like, you have to do more because I did more. It can kind of find its way in different manners in the relationship. So it's not just about me getting enough of something. It's also about expecting your partner to always be equal. Equal in you in effort, if that makes sense. That real. It's that real. And we were going to label this anyway, so I label it now. That transactional element of what I do should be met with what you do. What I take should be what you take should be met with. With what I take. It's that transactional nature of tit for tat, as you said. You know, everything's on a scoreboard. And that's, you know, why we say keeping score, because we feel like we're so, we're so strapped for resources, we're under so much pressure that we just can't bear to not have things even.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it was like, well, why should I put in the effort if they're not putting the effort? And you literally are keeping score. You're keeping a tally of. I put in this many efforts. And, and, Julie, you need to put in more efforts because that means we're equal. That means it's, we're 50 50. That's what's fair.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: That really goes to the heart of the mindset, I think, of what's happening there is I'm barely holding on and the thing that I'm holding on to is. Or the way that I'm managing to retain control is. Bye. Some idea that this is at least fair.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, you know, I think fairness in a relationship is a good thing, but I think it's more of a survive thing than a thrive thing. But we'll get to that.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: I just want to jump in on that because I actually think what's important here is something we've talked about, which is fairness does not equal equality.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: No.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: And that, that, I think, is where people get stuck, because fairness, for example, if your partner is really struggling, may look like you doing more. It may look like you being the person who's carrying more for that period of time.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Fairness isn't 50 50.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Correct. It isn't 50 50. And I think the distinction between fairness and equality is really important in this scenario as well.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, yeah, just what you said, sweetie. These things are called transactional relationships. That's what the relationship experts call them. And these can be really damaging to a relationship because over time, what happens is you start to become competitive. So just like businesses out there or countries competing for scarce resources, you know, things start to get pretty hostile. And you can see that in a relationship because if you're competing against your partner, competing for time, competing for affection, whatever it is, you're more likely to start squabbling over the little things. You're also going to start feeling less empathy for them because you're thinking about what your needs are, what you're getting, so you're not looking at them through the eyes of empathy. And when you start, and when you're not, and when you're not empathetic towards your partner, you start to lose your connection with them. And when you start to lose your connection with them, you lose intimacy. And of course, we want intimacy. We want connection. We should be feeling empathy towards our partners at all times.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: I think that's very true. And we've had a period recently ourselves where we felt very, very strapped for resources. We've moved house, we're selling our old houses. We have to do a few little things to it to get it ready for sale.
And we've definitely experienced moments where there's been scorekeeping. I can see it. And less generosity and certainly less empathy for one another. And it has impacted our intimacy, and we're both aware of it. We've talked about it, and we are trying daily to keep that in our awareness so that we do the very best we can under these challenging circumstances to continue to come back to what is going to keep our relationship in good stead despite all the pressure we're under, et cetera, et cetera. And even just that daily consciousness together that we have around. Look, we are struggling. This is happening. We are under pressure, et cetera, et cetera. We're not as connected as we'd like to be. Even just bringing that awareness to that and doing our best each day to rise above that and to put the relationship first by bringing awareness to it, even that helps to preserve our intention for our relationship and what we value in the relationship.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: That's 100% right, sweetie. We have been, you know, there's that push and pull of trying to really work as a team, and then also, hey, but I've got this to do to move house, but I've got this to do to renovate the old one. And of course, it's been school holidays for the last few weeks, and so we're all being pulled six ways till Sunday, and you do start to compete with each other and, of course, less connection, less intimacy. And I. You all know where this has happened to you. Maybe it's over the school holidays, and it's like, well, I took to the kids last weekend, or I take the kids all term. Are you going to step up and take the kids during the holidays? I took the kids to footy on Sunday morning. So are you going to take them to little Jimmy's birthday in the afternoon? I think there's lots of areas in our lives where we can start to see that tit for tat, that competing for resources.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think if we explore what's happening in those moments when the tit for tat really shows up, it definitely has a lot to do with the pressure and stress we're under. So if we're. If you think about some of these scenarios where it does show up. So school holiday times or talking about time with friends, or who's looking after the kids, or talking about finances or talking about exercise or hobbies, these sorts of areas of discussion or parts of our lives when they're under pressure. So when you're under pressure, for example, say you're under financial pressure and you've started to think about I'm worried about the family finances.
You've flipped yourself often without even realizing, into a scarcity mentality. We haven't got enough. And so everything that you look at your relationship or your world through is now through that lens of we haven't got enough. And if you haven't gone and told your partner, I'm feeling this way, all they're going to hear is, I'm now telling you, and competing with you for financial resources because you're going to start controlling. Oh, well, sorry, I shouldn't say you are going to. You will often start trying to control financial outcomes, and that means controlling your own behavior, certainly. I mean, we're not saying that when you are tit for tatting, that you're not also struggling with yourself. There's absolutely an element in that. But you start trying to control your partner's behavior because you're trying to get a handle on this concern. You have this fear, you have this pressure you're under.
And so the issue there is obviously that you haven't talked to your partner about what's happening. You haven't approached this together. The fear and the worry and what's underlying the tit for tat behavior is just brewing underneath. And so what comes out is that behavior.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, when our lives slip into chaos and we feel like we're losing control, what we do, we grasp for control. And we don't just grasp for control of what we have, we grasp for control of what we, we don't have. And we also grasp for control of those closest to us, like a life raft or some coming to save you out there and you drag them down with you. But of course, where do we want to be? We will want to be a team. We want to be living the team life. That's the end state we're going for. So if you juxtapose this transactional mindset, this tit for tat mindset, this, this looking at scarce resources and keeping score, keeping a tally of what I've done versus you. Done. Me versus you, you can juxtapose this with the team mentality where resources are pulled wherever I. We're all in this together.
Well, it is quite jarring because when we put our team hats on and we have to deal with scarce resources, which we do on a daily basis, we actually start to come at it from a mindset of collaboration instead of competition. So when we view resources belonging to the couple rather than the individual, we are more likely to work together to figure out, well, how do we work through this to find more time. Or as Kim and I always like to say, how do we, what do we say no to?
The other thing is that couples who share resources are more likely to take a long term approach to decision making. So, so, just like in business, just like in global trade, if you're squabbling over the little things, over the little prices, over the little tit for tatshe, you're more likely to be taking a short term view, your decision horizon, which means how far you're looking in the future, how far you're bargaining for the future is far shorter. When you're looking at things from a team perspective, you're looking for, you're looking at things in the long term. How does this benefit the team? Not just now, but ongoing? And I think that's a great mindset, because as a result, you'll start making far better decisions as a team, leading to less stress in the future, not only just the now.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a fascinating thing when you move into that team mentality that you're describing, rog.
It isn't that you get more resources, but of the, whatever you're fearing, you don't have enough of. For example, finances, let's say it's not that you end up with more money working together, ironically, which is what you perceive the problem to be, but what it does do is give you back emotional resources. So it gives you back. So the resources you're you, some of the resources you're actually strapped for at that point in time are emotional resources. So it gives you those back. You're able to share that problem with your partner, you're able to share that burden, share the solution finding process, share the joy of making progress on that issue. And that's what you get back when you apply the team mentality, the problem as you perceive it to be, which is, for example, we don't have enough money, we need more money. Whatever it is, whatever your financial. I'm just using that example because finances, the research shows that finances show up a lot in relationships as a key issue.
Whatever that perceived problem is, the reality is you will not change the amount of resources you have physically for that, but there are other resources being affected by taking a scarcity solo approach to that issue. And when you come together as a team, you get those resources back. And you know what? You feel like you've got resources back, and that makes it easier to then go ahead and tackle the actual issue you have together.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: Yeah, we talk about how the relat, your relationship and your home has its own ecosystem, and so if there's a lot of pain and pressure in one area, it's going to impact the rest. But if you can effectively solve problems, which if you are coming at things from a team mentality, you are more efficient and effective at solving it, the ecosystem is going to benefit.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: I love that you bring up the ecosystem and that's that understanding that what I do impacts you, what you do impacts me. And that real infinity sort of loop to imagine that everything we do has a flow on effect and a knock on, like a reverberative effect. So make sure that the direction you're heading in is the one that you want to be getting back. So I'm heading towards wanting more resources. When I'm feeling strapped for resources, therefore I'm going to my partner, I'm going to lean into the team mentality. And you know what's coming back? More resources. Because I no longer have to worry about this on my own. I no longer have to feel like I need to monitor them for everything they're doing, and all of a sudden that beautiful ecosystem lifts.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: That's right. And look, this all sounds easy in practice, but it's not. That's why we've got, you know, 86 plus episodes on how to become a team under our belts. And we've got a heap more to come because it's not easy to be a team. It's something you constantly have to work on. And you do come up with a lot of roadblocks. And you know what? Sometimes people are just a bit selfish and even when they don't mean to.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Be, I think this is a really great roadblock to discuss because there will be people listening and saying, I feel this, I feel this, this scarcity in my relationship, but I feel like it's my partner, mainly creative. They are being in selfish. And people can be selfish at times.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: They're just so focused on themselves.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: You may be very, very right if that's how you're feeling. It's probably got truth to it.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: They don't notice me, they don't notice the kids. They come home and they bang on their laptop, or they're just focused, so focused on them or emotionally switched off.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: But what the experts tell us, so Esther Perel tells us, is that self absorbed behavior often stems from a stress or an insecurity or a need for attention. And so if we address those sorts of states that our partner might be in, needing attention or feeling insecure with any sort of combative scarcity, you versus me approach, obviously that person in the more vulnerable emotional state is not going to respond well to that.
Now, I know for people they're going to find this hard, but why do I have to be the one to step up? Because you have a choice to make, whether you want this team to work or not. Every day you have to ask that in your relationship. And some days you're going to have to be the bigger person because the other person just isn't there. They're not there for whatever reason. Sometimes you might have to be the bigger person for a longer period of time. We're not saying stay in a relationship where the other person isn't trying, but sometimes to get things going when someone else is struggling, you need to be the one to step up, to make the changes, to start that ecosystem, driving itself forward. Right. To be the instigator, the igniter of the change in behavior in the whole relationship. So, for example, in this scenario, if you are feeling like, well, my partner is more the selfish one, and that's why we're lacking resources. Rather than accusing them of being selfish, which can feel like you really want to, because your frustration has got to the, you know, it's very limitous. Try to understand the root cause of what's happening for them. For instance, you could say, I've noticed you've been really focused on your work lately, and I'm feeling a little bit left out. Is there anything I can do? Is everything okay? I want to support you. And. And when we say that during stressful times, our partner feels the sense of care, nurturing, and that lowers their stress levels in their system and makes it easier for them to access what is actually happening for them. If we tell someone they're selfish, we're basically just triggering them into a more closed down state.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah. To go. To go maybe further inwards.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Or fight. Fight or flight. You know, they can fight you, they can run away from you, basically walk away from you, ignore you, absorb themselves in their phone. We want them to get into a state where they feel safe with you. They feel. And nurturing is a great way for someone to feel safe, safe enough to be vulnerable, to tell you what's actually happening for them. And that's how you're going to be able to start working together as a team to move forward.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I think empathy is often the gateway to vulnerability. So if you've got empathy for your partner, they're more likely to be vulnerable and you're more likely to then, I guess, resolve the issue that was causing all this conflict in the first place.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: I love that. Empathy is the gateway to vulnerability because we are not willing to let ourselves be seen until we feel safe to do so. And one of the easiest ways to make someone feel safe is to give them an environment in which you are showing them clear empathy.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: So if you really want to embrace the team, which. That's why you're listening to the podcast, we've got a bit of a hack for you, which is from renowned. From renowned relationship therapist Harville Hendricks and Helen Lakelly Hunt. Sorry, that's a tongue twister. Helen Lakelly Huntley. When it comes to couples who are keeping score and fighting over scarce resources, they have an antidote, and they like to call it radical generosity. Radical generosity is when you try go beyond mere fairness. You start looking at things from the team, from the combined, from the collaborative point of view, instead of the individual, the selfish, the singular.
You start going, what can I do for my partner today? What can I do for my relationship today? Knowing that as a whole that that is going to have a better outcome in the long term for you and for the relationship?
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Nikki and Pat, who we interviewed a little while back, talked about this is one of their relationship strengths, I think, as one of their key strengths or values even. Or values. Was it? I can't remember. Somewhere in there. And it really struck us because we had never heard from another couple the word generosity be used as a. As a description for a strength or a value in their relationship.
It's such a powerful thing when you think about it, this idea that your partner wants to be generous to you. We all talk about in life showing kindness, as almost too liberally used now. You know, just be kind. Just be kind. In the world there, it's become sort of like a cliche, throwaway term, but there is a depth to that. Being kind to someone, being generous to someone that has a huge impact on that person. That sense of, as I spoke about a second ago, that sense of being nurtured, of being loved by someone. This is how you build intimacy and connection with someone. This is how you build an unbreakable bond with someone where, you know, this person goes above and beyond for you. You know how special your relationship with this person is. And that's what radical generosity offers. This is opportunity to level your relationship up to a space where this is what you two do for each other in this world. No one else does this sort of stuff for each other. This is the level you guys are at, is above anyone else. You're operating within the world and you show each other this kindness, this nurturing that is so special that your relationship becomes so unique and so wonderful that you build this really deep, intimate bond and connection with each other. And it's a self fulfilling prophecy. When you behave like that, you want to behave more like that because that's who you see yourselves as. That's how you experience the world. We are the type of people who are kind to each other. We are the type of people who are generous to each other. And so all of your decisions start getting made through this lens. And that's when you experience that higher level of relationship outside of the.
I can only say the minutiae level of tit for tatting. It's a higher level of operating in your relationship.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So instead of sitting there going, how? Well, I've done this five times this week, they've only done it three. It's like, hey, well, I'm just going to keep doing it because I'm here to support them. And I might say, hey, I'm going to pick up the load this week. Extra. I can see you came home and jumped on your laptop. Yes, it wasn't great. You ignored the kids. Yes, it wasn't great. You ignored that and ignored me. But you're really focused right now. So I'm going to come in and I'm going to say to you, I'm going to do a, B and C to support you in this moment right now, because I know this is something that you're working on. And we've talked before about maybe getting a promotion. We've talked about for. About the stress you're under and that we've had, you know, interest rates go up and we do need more money. So what can I do to support you? Or I realize that I'm not just going to do 50 50 to reduce the mental load in the family and start, you know, doing the dish, unstacking and unstacking the dishwasher once a day. I'm going to take that on board as my job from now on. It's about looking at what extra you can do for your partner, going above and beyond because, you know, it's for the benefit of the team, not just you. It's not about getting something in return for you. It's about doing something for your partner and then doing something for the team.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that bit's really important because I think you can, you can still be tit for tatting, even when you think, oh, I'm going to go above and beyond. Well, now I've gone above, so why haven't they gone above? So you need to be mindful that you're going above, because that's who you believe you are. You believe you're a generous partner. You believe you work as a team, and that's what a team does. And I think to. To maintain that check and balance on yourself that you haven't slipped into tit for tat, even when you think you're going above and beyond. And in that generous spirit is keeping awareness, and that means an open dialogue. So what's critical here is that you are talking to your partner. If you do notice, like you say, Roger, that there is a disparity in something, and you say to yourself, well, that's okay, I'm going to go above and beyond in this space because my partner's working really hard to progress themselves forward this month, and we've agreed that that's something that we want to do as a team.
It's having that open dialogue. I see what you're doing. I see that we're doing this for the team, you know, keeping that awareness between the two of you so that it doesn't slip into any of that. Because resentment builds when we start telling stories to ourselves about why and what is happening. It's a lot easier to eliminate those stories and be a team when we're having open conversations.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: That's why they call it radical generosity, because you actually have to rise above, even when you're starting to wane and going, hey, I'm being really generous here, but I'm still not getting anything back. You just got to keep going. I promise you, your partner will pick up what you're putting down. They will notice the effort. It might take a little bit longer than you first thought, but that's why it's radical, because you actually got to push beyond that initial, I guess, belief and discomfort, that maybe things won't change. You just keep changing. Your partner will see what you're doing for them, especially if you start to be empathetic, empathetic, as you said, and start talking through how they're feeling, and then they'll start going when they see me, too. I can see now what they're doing. And do you know what you're gonna. The team's gonna get it back in spades, and you're part of the team. So are you.
[00:30:03] Speaker B: All right, Reggie, what was your gold nugget out of today's episode?
[00:30:08] Speaker A: I think. Oh, just the idea of radical generosity, like, that's why we brought it to the table. I just love it. I was just pushing as I just finished off with just pushing beyond the mirror of I'm going to be generous. It's like I'm going to be generous no matter what.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: It's such a cool concept, isn't it? Because it actually blows your mind.
I think my gold nugget for today, something I love as a human, is an idea that I haven't quite grasped because we're still working on radical generosity, you and I. This is definitely a work in progress for us. And, and I think most people, I think Nikki and Pat are an exception. I think they're incredible humans who have a really amazing relationship. And that's one of the things that they've actually got mastery on. Doesn't mean they don't still work at it. Of course they have to. Everyone has to still work at things. But what I, what I love about this is the idea that I haven't quite grasped it. And what an amazing thing to be able to work at something that you can't even necessarily say. I understand how I'm going to manage that. I love the challenge of that.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: You're amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living the team life relationship insights and conversations, head over to kimandroj.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and it'll make us really happy.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Until next time, keep on living the team life.
