Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: How do you talk to your partner about self change? It's a journey that can sometimes feel solitary, especially if we sense that our partner isn't on the same page or even aware of our evolving needs and aspirations. Today, we're diving into what happens when you feel like you're changing, but your partner seems to be struggling with your growth. How do you address their surprise without blame and navigate potential gender dynamics or historical contexts that might influence the way you each feel? Join us as we discuss the complexities of communicating your personal growth, involving your partner in your development, and ensuring that both of you are moving forward together.
Hey, we're Kim and Rog, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should, we think about the future as a field of possibilities and we let joy be our compass.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage, and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house flipping business, we've achieved some big dreams. And most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Peer conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts, and tales from our own lives as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: These are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfort in whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
This week on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Okay, so today we are talking about the topic of change. And this topic came about from some quality tv that I've been watching, the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.
And I watched a scenario that that happened on the show and it really got me thinking about the idea of change. And I went and spoke to Roger about it and we thought, let's discuss this on the podcast because it's actually quite layered. So let me just paint the picture for you.
There was a man and a woman. Anyone who watches Carla Maurizio were talking to one another about some of the changes that were happening in her life.
So she was getting more tattoos and he didn't even know how many she had in the first place. And this is a husband and wife who've been together for 27 years. And he said, I thought you had three. And she said, I have five. And he said, well, that's enough now. And she retorted with, it's my body, I'll do more if I want.
And what I observed in that scene was his face contorting repeatedly. He seemed to restrain himself from saying anything, but you could see his brain was really ticking over. He looked like he was in pain almost, and what looked like was happening behind the scenes for him is what is going on here. He was trying to process the changes his partner was making, because it was more than just the tattoos. She was changing lots of parts of her life, and it was a conversation. And the way she was engaging him was clearly unfamiliar to him. It was not the normal rhythm of their conversation. It's not what he had come to expect over the last 27 years. And you could see their anguish in his face.
And I'll get into the detail of the actual wording of the conversation, because I'm not saying I support his position here. What I'm saying is, as I started to unpack this in my mind, what was happening for him and what was happening for her, I realized that there were layers in this. And what I wanted to start with was the gender dynamic at play. So, firstly, let me just clarify. We're just going to be talking today about change when it comes from the woman. And the man is struggling with the changes that are showing up, because the gender dynamics are so specific to that situation. Based on the historical gender dynamics we've experienced, that it's really important that we dig into this deeply. So, gender dynamics, what do I mean by that? Well, on the surface in this situation, the woman, Kyle, was changing and the man was struggling with it. And when we, as women experience men resisting changes that we're making, it can feel extremely disrespectful, unsupportive, and potentially even controlling as a woman. And I want to dig into why that is. Where does this. This view come from? Why are we so mad when our partner doesn't support change? I mean, we're the ones asking for things to be different.
Isn't that upon us? Why does it frustrate us so much when our partner doesn't get on board, make the adjustments themselves to allow space for our change? And I want to go through the history around this and why it is so painful. This is largely rooted in gender disparities that exist. The reality is women historically have taken on more responsibility around childrearing, household, family life management, mental load. All the research shows a monster disparity between what men take on in the household and what women take on in the household, irrespective of how much work they're doing outside of the household, so paid work.
And in many ways, this disparity is often still just expected. It's a legacy of the fact that women were considered the homemakers. They were considered subservient to their partners. When they said their marriage vows, they said they would love and obey their partners. That's the world that we've existed in for a very, very long time. It's only in very, very recent times that we're stuck starting to move towards more equality, and we're certainly not in a place where we've, where we've come across equality yet.
And so women carry this exhaustion, this disparity from, as a legacy. This is part of who we are, and it can leave us feeling really resentful. So women often find themselves in a situation we see in marriages, where their independence gets reduced further and further as they assume more of these disparate responsibilities, as they take on more of the mental load in the household. And this expectation just exists. And so women become very exhausted.
And what happens when they go to make a change?
They're too tired. They're too tired to take their partner on the journey. And that's what I'm getting to with that long winded introduction. I apologize if I lost anyone there. But I think it's really important to understand the gender dynamics, because what struck me was she in the. When I was watching the very educational, real housewives of Beverly Hills, she didn't want to spend the time and energy bringing her partner on the journey. He was suffering. I could see it in the shot. I wanted to reach out and give him a hug and say, are you suffering here? Do you need help to understand what's happening? For me, she was saying, nuh uh. I have been telling you for so long, long that I needed things to be different. I have been doing all of this, and now you want me to educate you as I ask to make a change? I don't think so. I'm too exhausted. I have done too much of the work. She was too burnt out, worrying for everyone else for too long. She's no longer got the effort to worry about him in that situation. Coming along for the ride.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that'll resonate with a lot of women.
When we spoke to Penny and Hugh and we were talking about the fair play cards and the mental load, we addressed the fact that on the Imperfects podcast, episode. She said she was, like, screwed by default because they'd never discussed it beforehand. And so in a perfect world, as you go through your different seasons of life, and one of the biggest seasons will be when you decide to have kids. And there, in many ways, has to be a role a woman has to play in that first six to twelve months, what happens is that defaults to perhaps some older gender stereotypes that used to exist for hundreds and hundreds and current years. And current.
And I'm treading lightly. Yes.
And I think this happens to a lot of people. And what happens is because you are busy and you might have several kids, the years just go by, and all of a sudden you were, you know, late, late twenties, a woman in your late twenties. And now all of a sudden, you're a woman in your late thirties.
You've had three kids.
They're not at school until they're at five or six. And so you don't have time to yourself, and you're carrying the weight of the household, and you might be working back at work a few days a week as well.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Maybe that's the change you're thinking about going back to work. What change? You. You know? Do you know what I mean?
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. You're thinking about all these changes, but you're ten years older in a blink of an eye, and you're like, how did this happen? How did we get here? And I think that's what Penny was talking about as well. But I'll also pick up what you said there about, you know, she did. She was too tired to, I guess.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: The character on real house.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: The character Kyle.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I don't watch, but I get updates. I get nightly updates.
You know, she was too tired or, you know, exhausted. She didn't wanna bring him along on the journey anymore. But the stats back this up as well. Statistics suggest that 70% of divorces are initiated by women. So two out of three divorces are initiated by women. So what's happened here? Well, actually, they did some research from divorce lawyers and some key reasons why women might be initiating the divorces are they have better support groups, so they see other people leaving and they think, I can do this too. They feel like they have tried everything over a long period of time and they've just given up. They generally will feel unsupported by their spouse not to change, but generally, in their everyday life or unseen, they feel that they carry the emotional burden because maybe their partner doesn't open up to them.
You know, they don't feel like they get that reciprocal emotional intimacy or support. And of course, men are less likely to seek professional help in that space than women, so don't have the tools to do it in the first place. They obviously, as we've spoken about many times, will carry most of the domestic load. It won't be seen as a job or work. And when the husband gets home, he's like, I need a break. And she's like, where's my effing break?
[00:11:20] Speaker A: And she angry.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: I'm channeling women here. And, you know, at the end, they just get to a point where, like, I'm, you know, it's almost like a midlife crisis. Like I'm almost halfway through my life. I'm not putting up with this b's anymore.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Well, they're all very big reasons to want change. That none of those. So all of those reasons that have been cited for divorce are things that they would have wanted change around. Right. They would have welcomed change around. And what we're getting into, really today is, how can you make that change? Because what we saw on what I saw in that scenario on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills was she wanted to make change. She actually had spoken and, sorry, I should have given some more background. She was saying to her husband this, I need him to do other things. But she was so burnt out, she wasn't articulating what those other things were, because there was this real attitude of, that's for you to figure out. I'm exhausted. I've done the work. I've tried. I've tried to take you along for the journey. And it's those other things you have to now figure out on your own. And that's what we're wanting to break down now, is that part of the equation, really?
[00:12:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So when we say that, that 70% of divorce was initiated by women, often, what's happened? And if you listen to Adam Lane Smith, the Gottman, Stan Tatkin, they'll very much say the same thing, is that the woman, over time, has been communicating or showing or trying to put across this message that I'm not happy with how things are. I want things to change. And this can happen over years, and the man's just not picking up what they're putting down. And what they say is in so many of these scenarios from in the divorce court or through their relationship counseling, is the men are completely blindsided. And they'll go, well, why didn't you ever tell me this? And the woman's like, I've been telling you for ten years.
That was a good impression of an angry woman.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah, the stats are definitely saying that at some point, the way that the women are, the way that the women are expressing the reasons for leaving the marriage is such that these were all items they wanted to work on, they wanted change in and couldn't get the change. So the stats are definitely saying, or the feedback's definitely saying women wanted change and the change wasn't happening. And what we wanted to give at the beginning was that historical context to why so often it's women seeking the change in the marriage. And that's why this issue is so important to bring to the podcast, because this is a really common occurrence. 70%, up to 70% of divorces are initiated by women who have tried to make change, have tried to seek change in the marriage, and the men haven't understood that. And so thinking about this, how do you move forward in that scenario? If that's what you're actually wanting, if what you want is your partner to come along for the journey, but you feel exhausted, how do you move forward in this scenario?
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah, because I think really what's fair to say is that even though the woman in a thousand different ways has tried to communicate to her partner that she wants change, that things aren't good enough, she wants more support, more help, he just hasn't understood. And that might seem really, really unfair. But if the overarching outcome is you want to be in a healthy, loving relationship and change together, well, you need to. You need to, I guess, speak the same language. And I think that's often. Maybe the crux of what's happened is the woman said in again, a thousand different ways, I'm not happy. I want change. And the man just was like, you're speaking gobbledygook to me.
Whatever the reason is, he just hasn't understood.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: And this is so hard for women. I get this, I get so frustrated at the fact that we have to advocate for ourselves on top of having been oppressed. That to me just seems absolutely ridiculous and unfair. But at the same time, when I step back from everything, the only way to progress is to be outcome focused. I can't stay in my frustrations of the past. I can't stay upset and hurt by what has occurred.
I want progress, and that's where that outcome focus comes in. And whilst I hear women saying, but we try everything, what the evidence is telling us or is suggesting is that what with the men saying that they feel blindsided when 60% to 70% of women are initiating divorces, it's telling us that the men are not receiving what we're putting out. It's not enough. We're not. We're not. If your goal is to actually make change and stay in the marriage, if your goal is to get out of it, that's a whole other scenario. If your goal, and most women say, I tried everything because I wanted to make it work, I wanted to stay in the marriage, I just. I haven't got anything left in me. If that's your outcome that you want out of this, we need to reassess whether it's working the way we're going about trying to get the change. And I think if we go back to that scenario that I explained from the real housewives of Beverly Hills, let's look at what happened there. So Kyle has had three tattoos she wants. She's hacked. She's got two more. Her partner, Mauricio, didn't know about them. She's making changes in all sorts of parts of her life, diet, wellbeing, sobriety, self focus, body art. And he's clearly struggling with these. And he says to her, stop it. It's enough with the tattoos. Let's see what's happening in this scenario. Was he right to say this? No. Is it fair? Absolutely not. Should she have to educate him on why it's not right or why it's not fair or what she actually needs and wants in that scenario? Well, this is where we probably say yes. And the feminist in me is screaming, it's not our job to do all the heavy lifting.
But the reality is we need to take people along for the journey if we want to stay focused on the outcome. It doesn't excuse what they've done. It doesn't say it's okay. And I think that's the difference. We're not saying what you've said was okay. We're not saying you trying to control our individual choices for body art is okay. What we're saying is we're focused on the outcome, and we want to work together as a team to get towards that. And maybe for now, I'm going to have to look past something that is deeply offensive to me as a woman, a man, trying to control my own decisions, and I'm going to have to circle back to that when I feel like we have better language between us, when I feel like we have better context between us, when I feel like we're making progress together, because right now, that conversation probably feels beyond what we have between us.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: You don't want to get to a stage where you're asking for change through a divorce, you want to ask for change before that happens. And I guess that's what's important, is to understand maybe how do you cross that bridge? How do you make that connection with your partner? How do you communicate your needs and wants before it's too late to ensure that they can come along on the journey so you have a happy marriage. Divorce sucks. I don't think there's too many people who've been through divorce who would go, great. Can't wait to do that again. I think most people, when they envision their lives when they first get married, is, I want a long, happy, healthy relationship. And I'm not gonna sit here and say, yes, you girls need to once again step up to the plate and help us blokes out. But I guess if the outcome is change before it's too late, then there are some ways we can bring our partner along for the ride.
[00:19:42] Speaker A: I just want to be clear, though, it's not about women not having asked for the change they have asked. That's clear in the feedback they're providing.
Women who are getting divorced and initiating the divorce are saying, I did ask for it over and over again. What we're trying to do here is reframe the frustration in that, perhaps to give people an idea that you are asking for it over and over again, and it must be so exhausting. But they are not hearing you, and that isn't necessarily because they're ignoring you. That's what we're trying to unveil today, is that the men feel like they've never even been asked.
And yes, that's unfair because women probably are saying it till they're black and blue in the face. But what we're saying is the men aren't. They're not. It's not that they don't want to hear it. It's not that they're ignoring you. They can't hear it. It's not in their language. And so just asking women to take a teeny step back for a moment and say it's not fair. I'm not saying it's two things are true, it's unfair. You have to do it.
But it is also most likely the only way you're going to get change is to bring them along for the journey. Right?
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I'm not. We're going to go through three. It says simple here, but I might detract that comment. We're going to take you through three steps on how to bring your partner along for the ride, just quickly so I'm not mansplaining these steps to you, okay. Kim and I put them together, we talk them through, and we believe this will help you bring your partner along for the ride on your journey of change. So one, be direct. Say what you want, say what you need, clearly, tell them you want change, but that you want them on the journey with you so they feel a part of it. I actually think that's why Kim and I have always worked really well. She's very direct. I think so. I think so. I think not all women are as direct as Kim. So I'm actually a bit opposite. I'm fairly indirect with the way I go about things sometimes and the feedback from the guru relationship psychologists and couple counselors is that perhaps the women weren't direct enough. And of course the women would say, well, how many times do you want to say, this is too much for me?
[00:22:10] Speaker A: I think. I think that's a really important one because I think the difference between what we perceive as direct and what you perceive as direct is massive. You need to be told repeatedly, point blank, what it is that we want, what we need, and that we're in this together.
I mean, for us, that was a massive shift in our relationship when we got to that point. So I just want to be clear how direct you really need to be. And that's something you expressed to me you didn't understand until I got really direct on things.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Yeah, straight. Straight at me.
But step two. But go slowly. Give them time to process. We're like elephants. We just slowly trundle through the Sahara desert or wherever elephants live, sometimes in India. And things just take a bit of time.
Understand that you might need to explain what you need and what you want and the change you're expecting more than once and in more than one way. If you need professional support to do this, that isn't a bad idea either. It might help you get some traction again. As long as you say, I want to do this with you, this is something we should do together. I want change and I want you on that change journey with me.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: I think this is where a relationship counsellor can be fantastic. For some people, they just can't find the common language. And going to a third party to help them to find that common language can be a game changer.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: And always be wary of someone who tells you you shouldn't go seek professional help. These people have a heap of experience and go check it out for yourself. If you don't like it, fine, but that they can help.
Three, embrace their willingness to try and expect resistance. And road bumps come from a position of being team focused, being outcome focused. We want to think about where we're going as a unit, not where we've been and the pain that has been caused. Also focus on the little efforts they're putting in. If you see effort, that's a positive sign, even if they don't get it straight away, and probably, they probably won't. But concentrate on the fact that they're moving in the direction, moving forward with you, even though they might be taking a bit of a windy road to get there.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: All right, rog, what was your gold nugget from today?
[00:24:37] Speaker B: My gold nugget is that women are amazing and guys need to step up.
No, no. In all seriousness, I think most people do want strong, healthy, happy marriages. And I don't think it's an excuse for guys to not pay attention to their wives, to not communicate with them, to ignore them, to not seek emotional connection with their partners and then go, well, you didn't speak my language, so it's not my fault. I'm a big one for accountability.
But at the same time, if that is the case, work together to see what you can do.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: For me, I think it's understanding that two things can be true and it's such an important fact of life.
It can feel unjust and it is unjust. It is unfair that you've been asking all the time and it's. It's not getting there. And then you have to help even further.
But if you don't do that, you're not going to get towards what you're working towards, which is a happy, content, successful relationship. So it's really about accepting that sometimes things aren't fair. They don't feel fair and they're not that fair. Change is heavy on a relationship. It. It takes a lot out of a relationship. And understanding that that process will have moments where it's not fair, we'll have moments where it's not even.
But if we stay outcome focused, which is to build strength in the relationship, to make progress, that's the path that's going to help us to get to where we want to go. It's about letting go of our righteousness in ourselves. That's very hard for me to say because I have a love of righteousness and advocacy. But I understand and I have learned in my own life certainly, that being outcome focused is far more productive to making progress in life.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: You're amazing. You've just spent quality time on your.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: Relationship, feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living the team life relationship insights and conversations, head over to to kimandroj.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy, and it'll make us really happy.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Until next time, keep on living the team life.
