Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You.
Some couples are wired to have more quiet, calm and restrained conversations, whilst others like to respectfully let it rip, come together and surge forward after a passionate debate. And research tells us both of these ways have their place. But why? And what is it exactly that works? And importantly, what is it that definitely doesn't work? Well, that's what we're about to unpack today as we dig into the five different couple communication styles.
Hey, we're Kim and Roger, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should, we think about the future as a field of possibilities and we let joy be our compass.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage. And it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house flipping business, we've achieved some big dreams. And most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Hear conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts, and tales from our own lives, as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: These are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfortable in whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: You.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: We'Re doing this one for the people today. Everyone's always talking to us and asking us questions about communication. It's all about communication, isn't it? When we talk about relationships, when we talk about the issues couples have, if we talk about reconnecting, if we talk about connecting, they say, yeah, but it's about communication. And yes, they're right, it's not the only issue. In fact, often there's other underlying issues that seem to bubble up or don't bubble up, but definitely communication. And having some skills in your communication toolkit or some tools in communication toolkit is really important. And the other one is information is power. So today we want to give you some information about what type of communication, what type of couple you are, what's your communication style, your couple communication style. So Harold Roche had a landmark book called Communication Conflict in Marriage, in which he analyzed the interaction between partners to discriminate happily from unhappily married couples. Now, John Gottman and Julie Gottman, the gurus who we often cite on this show because they really have been doing this for 40 years in their love lab. They took this idea and really, I guess, put some data behind it. In fact, this recent book of theirs I've been reading, they said they've started to use AI technology, including eye tracking and body tracking and data points on words to understand couples communication styles and predict whether that couple will need further assistance in their marriage or if they're heading towards disaster. But we're going to go through these five couple communication styles today. Three are good, and we hope you might be able to find what you and your partner are in those, and two are not so good. So we'll close off with them.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think this is a great topic today because, as you say, Roger, it's going to give people some more information around communication styles. But also, the big thing that really struck me when we talked about doing this show was there's this element in relationships that can be quite destructive, which is an element of judgment, and we judge ourselves and we judge our partners, and we judge the relationship. So if we have an aggressive argument or we are firecrackers or whatever it is, often afterwards we judge ourselves for that, which just adds a layer of shame and starts us down a pretty negative pathway. And I think what today highlights, outlining these different types of communication styles is what you might naturally think is good or bad isn't actually the case. The research that the Gottmans have done looking into these communication styles, the way couples communicate, tells us that you don't just have to be a know that sort of predictable, calm.
I don't know what you'd say, what people might term like a perfect engager in communication, to have constructive communication, for the communication to work in the relationship. So I think giving people the information today around the different ways couples can communicate. So these five different styles that Gottman and Rausch obviously originally have termed these five different styles or identified, I should say, is just a really helpful way for couples to get to know themselves a little bit better and think about what actually works for them, what happens in their relationship that works in the way that they communicate together. And also that we've got some watch points even for the three communication styles that they identified. Gomeman, Rausch identified as positive communication styles, which are an interesting three different types. Even they have some watch points. So really, today is about getting extra information and perhaps breaking some preconceived notions or some social ideas or social norms around what a perfect relationship should look like, or what a perfect communication style would be.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I really love that, sweetie. One of the things we try to do here on living the team life is make this information accessible to couples. Because of those who aren't in couples counseling, where these five relationship or these five couple communication types are used, it is quite a lot of information. And Harold, Rausch and Gottman, they labeled them things like conflict, avoiding, volatile, validating. So we're going to simplify it again, we're going to simplify it a bit, try synthesize the information for you, and make it a bit more accessible to you and your partner. To understand what couple communication style you both fit into. First we're going to kick it off with the harmonizers. Now, this is what Rausch and Gottman called the conflict avoiders. But again, let's try and make it a bit more simple. We're going to call these guys the harmonizers, because they like to live in harmony. They avoid conflict, they avoid expressing directly what they need from one another, and they feel like they've got a great relationship because they're generally happy and they don't have too many fights. They don't try constantly persuade the other person about their thoughts or opinions or their side of thinking. They actually try to just actually land on that common ground. They have very clear boundaries, and often they live quite separate lives where they have separate interests, and they go and do their own thing. Now, this isn't to say that they're unhappy. This isn't to say that they don't get along or they have nothing in common. In fact, they do actually feel quite connected on the areas they do have in common that are overlapping, and they're just not dependent on one another. They also can be quite less emotionally expressive. But what they do do is they do keep their love bank account tipped up and topped up, as in their Gottman, five to one ratio of five positive interactions to one negative interaction does stay that or higher.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Let's have a look at some of the benefits of the harmonizers. These couples naturally maintain peace and harmony because they avoid confrontations. They focus on their shared values and commonalities rather than their differences. So this approach, obviously, you can see how it would lead to a sense of stability in the relationship, because it is a calm space and they are focusing on what works for them.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. But like all things, there's some watch points. So if you identify as a harmonizer, you and your partner, here's something to watch out for. So, obviously, the downside to avoiding conflict, it means that some issues can simmer under the surface and they remain unresolved. And the worst part is they could build up as resentment. Over time, some important concerns can go unaddressed, leading to an emotional distance. So it's really important that these couples do find constructive ways to address issues, especially those core ones in a relationship, before they do bubble up and escalate.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: All right, let's move on to the second type of communication style that we see in couples. And the second one is called the. Well, we've labeled it the firecrackers.
Gottman labeled it or Raush labeled it the volatile couples. So this one's a great one, because this is what we are.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: That's why I like firecrackers more than volatile.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: I don't mind the word volatile. That's what I'm saying, though. Just back to that judgment piece. At the beginning, people have these ideas, these preconceived notions that, why is being volatile always a bad thing? Yes, it's more up and down, but that's not necessarily bad. And I think we all have to take out our judgment on these words and take out our judgment on these behaviors and look to the science and see what does it actually tell us about these behaviors and words? What does it actually mean? Because the science has told us that this is one of the communication styles in a couple that actually works in the relationship. So on that, let me kick in. So what does a volatile couple look like? Or a firecracker couple like ourselves? They're almost the exact opposite of the harmonizers. No surprise there, because harmonizers are conflict avoiders, and firecrackers are intensely emotional people who do not try to avoid conflict. In fact, during conflict, they begin persuasion immediately, and they stick to it throughout the discussion. So they're trying to bring their partner across. They're working hard to get their perspective and get the relationship on board with what they believe really works. And they're debating in the couple, which we absolutely love, because this is a huge part of the way that we engage one another. Their debating is characterized by a lot of laughter, shared amusement, and humor. And I think throughout an argument or a disagreement, even in the midst of a very heated debate, without fail, there is always humor. It's some sort of funny word or funny action that we have an in joke on that just brings that bit of levity. It doesn't stop the debate at all. The debate continues. But you realize with that bit of levity that you're not having a debate. That's personal. This is just an issue based debate, and you're still able to laugh. What's personal is the connection you still have through that debate.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think sometimes we might interject with, well, that escalated quickly, didn't it? And there's little moments like that where you're not giving too much ground, but you're just saying, hey, this is a bit of a rough debate, but this is us.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I like that example. So what else about the firecrackers?
They love the debate, they love the argument, but they're not disrespectful and insulting. And there may be a lot of negative emotion expressed or affect, as it's called, including feelings of anger and feelings of insecurity, which I think people can construe occasionally as a problem, but they're not if they're not brought up in a contemptuous way. So we've talked about the four horsemen of the apocalypse before, and one of the four horsemen, which is these really negative, damaging communication styles, is contempt. So there's no contempt in this couple. There's upset, there's hurt, these sorts of things, but not contempt.
The firecracker couple, if this is you and you're recognizing yourself, you'll have no clear boundaries around individual worlds.
Everything merges in. You meld together as a couple, you talk about everything together. There is no independence. We live our separate lives and we try to come together in a peaceful space. These things overlap enormously. And whilst firecrackers argue a great deal, they have this real emphasis on connection with one another and honesty in their communication, which I think is beautiful.
Right. Let's go through some of the benefits. And we've sort of tried to highlight these, as I've gone. But volatile couples, or firecracker couples, are intensely emotional and passionate, and they engage in really heated and honest exchanges. That's getting it all out there. They know who they are and they're saying it out there, which, actually, the more honest we get in a conversation, the more likely we are to get to the root of something and have a deep understanding of one another's perspective and position on something. And that can really help to resolve conflicts at a deeper level. And their relationship then becomes marked by a strong emotional connection and also really lively dynamics.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and, of course, there are some watch points, like, if you're like Kim and I, things can get pretty intense sometimes. And if they're left unchecked and if you don't have that respect and that laughter, this can lead to destructive arguments. We always have to make sure that Kim and I, that our arguments are respectful and we're focused on the resolution rather than trying to score points and definitely not hurt the other person. Because I know maybe in the first ten years of our relationship, when we had an argument, they could denigrate into, like, personal attacks, but we weren't on the same team, right? So everything was you versus me. And what's more important is I win the argument versus the two of us, come together and figure out what's best for us, what's best in this situation, and the empathy we see from each other's side. Because it is important for firecrackers to learn how to cool down and take a step back and put yourself in the other person's shoes. It's not always about your point of view that you're trying to persuade or trying to argue.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: I think that's where we grew up, Rod, and evolved. I think we've always had firecracker temperaments, both of us. And when we were younger, we didn't have the skills to understand how to cool down and regulate ourselves. We didn't have the awareness even to know that we needed to do that and stay focused on being productive. And so the argument would devolve and we weren't actually firecrackers because it would become personal. So we entered a different category of communication style. But as we've evolved our skill set, we have become firecrackers. We have not at all stopped arguing passionately ever in 22 years. But we definitely argue differently in the way that we approach one another.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: That's right. So you can see that often the firecrackers are seen as the opposite to the harmonizers, where one couple is always trying to keep the peace and respect boundaries and live individual lives. The firecrackers are full of emotion. They're trying to persuade, they're trying to get their argument across, and they live very complex, intertwined lives. In the middle is the third category, the zenners.
These couples, the Zenners are also known by Gottman and Rausch as the validators, validating couples. Their interactions are characterized by calm and ease. They are somewhat expressive, but mostly neutral. And in many ways they seem to be that in between of the firecracker and the in between of the harmonizer, they do put a lot of emphasis on supporting each other and understanding their person's point of view. And they're also very empathetic as well. They will confront differences, but only on some topics, but not always others. And they can become competitive on some issues which can sometimes turn to a power struggle. But usually they are doing it in a calm way without raising their voices. And there is usually a compromise during conflict. Zenas can also be mildly emotionally expressive, but nowhere near the firecrackers and not as harmonious and calm as the harmonizers. And again, like the other two, they keep that positive five to one ratio in their love bank account.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Yeah, these guys are great. The Zenners actually look more for compromise. So what we see in the benefits of this group is the first group that we talked about, the harmonizers, they probably don't engage enough to look for compromise. They just keep it to themselves a little bit more. And they do focus on having a peaceful situation. So that is a focus that they have. And a shared compromise, I guess, is that we both want peace. The volatile firecrackers, like ourselves, they want to go all in. They want to be seen, heard, validated. They want to have the discussion, get it out on the table, find the solution. And that's how they manage their communication style. These guys, the Zenners, the third group, they're really about, they'll have a little bit of that. They'll show some empathy for one another, definitely want to hear one another's perspective, but they're looking to compromise. They're looking to find that solution. And I think that's a huge benefit to this group.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. They seem to be the more balanced of the three. Right? They do fit in the middle, but no better.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: We're clear that these three have all been shown to have, they're all positive communication styles for couples. So there's nothing to say. And again, there's that judgment piece. There's nothing to say. We judge the other ones. These guys are maybe middle of the road, but that doesn't mean they're better or worse.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: No. If anything, it's all about what fits you and your partner as opposed to, oh, this one's good, this one's bad. Although we will in a minute get to two that are a bit negative. But I just want to add some watch points for the Zenners because, yeah, generally they do have some healthy communication patterns, but they still have to be cautious not to suppress their own needs just for the sake of validating their partners. Because validation can sometimes end up where you're sacrificing too much and you're putting away your own needs for your partners. But again and again, so you lose that balance. It still has to be mutually satisfying, this relationship. And while both of you give and both of you get. There is a balance there, and there's always a risk of it tipping over.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: All right, on to the last two categories of communication styles that we see in couples that Gottman identified after he took Rausch's work and built on it. He identified the first one was the hostile couples. We haven't given these guys a different name because hostile pretty much sums it up. Okay, so these are couples that have high levels of defensiveness on the part of both partners. So they'll enter into spaces of criticism really quickly and easily. You always or you never statements. And this is where we see ourselves probably in the first ten years of our relationship, where we would start with a passionate argument, but it would unfortunately devolve into these more personal critical statements because we didn't know how to regulate ourselves and cool our jets.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Well, it became hostile, didn't it?
[00:20:19] Speaker A: It did. It became name. Yeah, absolutely. So we just had to learn those skills to get into the firecracker category.
So another thing about hostile couples is that during conflict, each partner will just continuously reiterate their own perspective. So there's no real agenda to understand the other person, to build empathy in the conversation, to grow together. It's really very much my way or the highway. And that is different from the firecracker. Whilst the firecracker wants to persuade, they are listening to the other partner as well. They want to have a debate, a discussion. They want to consider other ideas as well. So the hostile couple is not like that. There is only one way, and that's it. So there's no interest in considering the other person or offering empathy or compassion for their perspective. And another one of the elements of the hostile couple is, on top of the criticism, you see a lot of contempt. So people being contemptuous towards their partner, which is a really. It's with one of the four horsemen, as I said before, like, criticism. And it can really be very damaging to relationships.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: Yeah, well, they actually said that all four horsemen can often be present with these hostile couples. Now, the good news is that Gottman felt that hostile couples could be brought back from the brink. So these couples, they were in trouble, right? Things had really gone bad. Yeah, 100%. Like us. They put in the work. They understood their type of communication style. Like us, we understood we were the firecrackers, and we understood what we had to watch out for. But also the beauty of being a firecracker in our relationship. And that's what Gottman's able to do with the people in his love. Lab. However, he did identify a type of hostile couple. This is the fifth type that ultimately would end up in divorce. And these were called the hostile detached couples. And again, you can hear from the name, they were hostile, but also. Yeah, detached. There was apathy there.
Apathy.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Apathy.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Don't like that one.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: You want people to care enough to fight. You definitely want them not to stop caring enough to even enter the debate.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Yeah, look. So look, with these couples, they were like two armies engaged in a mutually frustrating and lonely standoff of no clear victor, only a stalemate. They snipe at each other during conflict, the air is full of emotional detachment and resignations. Through throwing their hands up in the air, all peace negotiations have failed and they almost don't care enough to mount any passionate forays across the field of battle. Sorry, that was me getting a bit too into my wartime analogies.
For example, there might be a fight between two of them, and when one of them goes, okay, I'm going to back down and try let find some common ground.
If it's very volatile, one of you won't withdraw. You'll just keep going, keep going, keep going.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: And it's almost as if the other person won't let you withdraw. Yeah, right.
The image that comes to my mind, which is quite hectic, is a snake. Like an aggressive snake. And you're in battle and one goes to leave the battle, it's losing. And that snake pursues. It's those aggressive tiger snakes. They're going after you. They're going to get their fangs into you. And it's a really nasty, destructive way of communicating with a partner.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: It is. And look again, the first three, it doesn't really matter which one you are.
It's really more about having the information so you can understand how better to interact with your partner. And so it'll be great. Listen to this episode with your partner and decide which one are you? When Kim and I were doing the research on this, we also had a bit of information on this beforehand. We had a really good laugh when we read through all the information about the firecrackers because it was like, tick, tick, tick. And it was also interesting to see the watch points because these things that we have worked at over the years to improve our communication, to improve our relationship, but we know we're always going to be firecrackers. So it's not about moving away from being a firecracker, it's actually embracing our firecrackerness and exploding into a firework.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I think hopefully today gives people just some more information. And even if they're not in the first three categories that were outlined as more positive communication types and recognized that way in Gottman's love labs, even if they see themselves in the hostile couples, understanding that you can move from that category, we definitely existed in that category when we were younger, and we have moved out of that category. So if you are feeling like, oh, we're a bit hostile, that's okay, that's okay. When you learn the skills, you'll be able to move out of that category. So this is really about giving people information and understanding more about who they are, and also offering some validation for maybe different communication styles that they might feel lightly criticized for. The fact that most firecrackers won't be firecrackers in public because they know it doesn't look very good, but there's actually nothing wrong with it. And I think that owning who you are is a really important part of this piece. And like Rod said, as long as you've got the watch points, then you can really embrace the styles and the way they work well together.
All right, Roger, what was your gold nugget out of today's episode?
[00:26:09] Speaker B: My golden Nugget was know again, information is power. If you understand more information about who you and your partner are, both as individually, but as a team, then you can make the right decisions based on that information. And so for Kim and I, I actually wish we had more information like this 1213 years ago, because we might have understood that actually, there's nothing really wrong with us. We just don't know how to communicate and fight properly. And if we'd had this information, we might have gotten through a few bust ups a bit more easily.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: I like that. For me, it was really understanding that it doesn't really matter where you are in this. If you see yourself in the first four today, even if you see yourself in the fifth, which the hostile, detached couples, which had a higher likelihood of divorce, you can always make change. And we are such a clear and honest example of that. It's really just about building your skills up and understanding that you just need to put in a bit of different work. Get the information, like you say, Roger, and you'll be able to grow and change together as a couple.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: You're amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living the team life relationship insights and conversations, head over to kimandroj.com, where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: And if you liked today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy, and it'll make us really happy.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Until next time, keep on living the team life.
