Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Children, they're one of the most magical parts of life. But reality is they also bring on one of the hardest seasons of life in your relationship. The pressures of sleep deprivation, loss of identity, mental health decline, loss of time, and an unceasing unsurety about what you are doing. And whether it is correct make for a boiling pot of challenges. For any couple, a lot of these issues are chronically under acknowledged. The silence only contributing further to the sense of isolation and disconnection. Couples often feel. So we are opening up the conversation today to de-stigmatize it by exploring some of the well reported and not so well reported struggles for parents of young children, and how as a couple you can tackle them together. Hey, we're Kim and Rod, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
Speaker 2 00:00:53 We're a west Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should we think about the future as a field of possibilities, and we'll let joy be our compass.
Speaker 1 00:01:02 We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage, and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
Speaker 2 00:01:11 From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house dripping business, we've achieved some big dreams, and most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
Speaker 1 00:01:19 Pick conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts and tales from our own lives. As we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team. These
Speaker 2 00:01:29 Are relationship conversations for real people buy real people. So sit back, get comfort from whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
Speaker 1 00:01:45 Today we are talking about how having kids changes your relationship. So having children is a massive shift in your relationship. Absolutely categorically, unavoidably will alter the dynamic of your relationship, positive or negative, temporary or longer term. It doesn't matter. The point is it will shift you for the bare minimum a season. And one of the big reasons that is, is because it creates a lot of new pain points in your life. Areas of struggle and challenge that can be extremely difficult on the relationship and can cause massive friction between the partners and in some cases result even in the breakdown of the relationship. So our purpose for, for doing this episode today was really to come on and talk through some of those really painful parts of living through the season of becoming new parents. Validate some of those, those pains and struggles that we go through because one of the big things we experience as new parents is a sense of aloneness, a sense of misunderstanding from the world of confusion. And, and that can be very isolating. So really coming on to say, you know, from our research and from, uh, talking to families with young children, we see that these issues are universal. They're not just experienced by some, they're experienced by many. And just sharing that can sometimes help to support people to understand that what is happening for them is part of this season. It is just part of what you go through when you have young children.
Speaker 2 00:03:36 Uh, recent study suggests that 67% of couples reported a client in relationship satisfaction in the first three years after they've given birth to their first child. Uh, which really does, I guess, put weight to what you are saying and also to the fact understanding that people, you're not alone if you're struggling with your partner. Um, if you're struggling with your kids, especially in those, uh, those fledgling years of their lives, because the rhythm change, as you said, your life literally changes. And, you know, we're not gonna sit here today and say, you know, embrace the change, embrace the embrace the hardness.
Speaker 1 00:04:13 We're, we're just join offer today, one, a space to talk about this stuff because it's clear from our audience that these are really big issues and that they're coming up in a lot of relationships. That's the feedback we're getting online. Uh, and two, just a a some, I would, I would say some possible helpful ways that you can start to approach your relationship differently in this season. And like you say, we're not gonna be arrogant enough to say that you can turn this all around and it's not going to be hard. Hardship is part of relationships, and this is one of the themes we talk about on this podcast. Hardship is always going to be there in certain seasons of life. It's going to be more prevalent in other seasons of life. It's going to feel like it's, it's just a, a bit of a distant memory, but this is one of those times where hardship really shows up in the relationship. And you do, you do need to think about things a little bit differently because we are so bogged down by the challenges of, of New Parenthood. So we are just going to make some suggestions at the, at the end of the podcast for possible approaches that may support you to start to engage your relationship differently in this season.
Speaker 2 00:05:26 I've, I've always said to friends who are going to have their first child, um, maybe they won't be asking for advice, but they'll will just be shoot in the breeze. And I, the one word I used to describe having a kid is relentless. Because at no point do you get to stop being a parent. And if you can have that anchor, that rock in your life of, uh, your partnership, of your relationship of your marriage, then you're gonna be in a much better stead to get through this.
Speaker 1 00:05:56 The first area we're gonna talk about is the toll having children takes on your mental health. This is absolutely massive. One of the things that we are hearing a lot more about in society these days is postnatal depression, uh, postnatal depression and anxiety. And, uh, Panda who are one of the organizations who support women with postnatal depression, uh, have given some sta statistics that suggest that one in five women struggle with postnatal depression. And in fact, one in 10 new fathers also struggle with postnatal depression or anxiety. Uh, so those stats are pretty incredible when you think 20% and 10%, uh, for women and men respectively are struggling with postnatal depression. And I'm so pleased to see that this is getting a higher profile in society, that we are talking about this a lot more because it is such an important issue. If you haven't experienced depression, it'd be very hard to understand how impactful it can be on someone's life, how all consuming it is, and that it is a chemical imbalance.
Speaker 1 00:07:04 It is not, it is not simply a state of mind that can be moved by someone suggesting a different state of mind. It takes a lot of hard work, a lot of practice to get out of depression. And this, the, the focus on this has been, has been something that has been a long time coming. And I, like I say, I'm very pleased to see that we are focusing a lot more on postnatal depression. However, I w would like to bring attention to the fact that there are a lot of mothers and fathers who may not meet the criteria for p and d, but are still struggling mentally because the shift is so massive. And I would say I was one of those parents for sure. Uh, the, the, the toll the exhaustion took on me, the attempts to breastfeed the pain I had with breastfeeding, the unknown issues that went on for so long, the infections that you get, all of that sort of stuff that's just so horrifically painful.
Speaker 1 00:08:08 It, it takes a huge toll on your mental health. The ideas out there around what you should be doing and shouldn't be doing, they all impact your mental health. And one of the biggest ones that no one talked about with me was the birth itself. The birth for women is such a pivotal moment in your life, and for some women, they have beautiful birthing stories and it's, it becomes a core memory that they will live with in a joyous state forever. For a lot of us, the birthing story is not what you expected and it's extremely traumatic. So we come out of this monster trauma, some of us with very serious injuries, and we are expected straight away to go into mum mode. And no one is checking in on our mental health at that point. Now we do have maternal child health nurses. They're the only real checkpoint for new mothers or fathers, whoever's taking the child to the appointment.
Speaker 1 00:09:10 But the reality is, when we go to these appointments, we're put the children first. And I can vividly remember saying to the nurse, no, no, I'm fine. I was much more concerned about my baby than I was about my own mental health, uh, despite the fact that it was really struggling at the time. And I just think that there's very little support in place, you know, in the hospital, outside of the hospital to check in with women and, and see how they're actually traveling with their mental health just for them, not for the baby as well. Not how's baby, what's happening here with baby? How are you, how was that birth for you? What are you carrying after that? You know, a traumatic emergency c-section will we'll be playing on a mother's mind for a long time afterwards. A a traumatic natural birth where babies get stuck and women tear and or they have to have an app episiotomy and they didn't even know an app episiotomy was a real thing. It's, these are the things that women are trying to process all whilst also being, trying to be a new mom. And it was, figure it out for yourself or talk to your gp, but again, you gotta instigate that yourself. Where are the check-ins with mothers?
Speaker 2 00:10:22 Yes. So you're so short for time as a mother and a father during those initial stages of a child's life. You're just trying to keep the lights on. You're trying to keep the baby baby breathing, you're trying to work through this sleep deprivation. And yet, yet having uh, not having any support system to really check in on how you are going. And a lot of the time, even from in your support system, outside of the direct family, people will often just be like, how's the baby going? What are you doing for the baby? Not really asking the question, how are you, are you coping? Are you struggling? And when you do the get the question, it's only, um, surface deep. It's not a like, how are you really? Cuz if you do start to scratch beneath the surface, you might sit there going, oh, actually I am really struggling. I'm worried I'm not doing this right. Actually, I've, I've, now I think about it, I think I'm gonna fall apart. And for so many people, that's what's actually going under the surface. And the problem is, cause we don't have that time all of a sudden three months, six months, 12 months, and maybe if you haven't been doing those checkins, that, that those issues can really start to, to build and propagate.
Speaker 1 00:11:30 I think you're so right. There is this general acceptance that we ask about the baby, but we shouldn't really pry too deeply into the, the mother or the father's mental health. Every,
Speaker 2 00:11:42 Everyone's a parent, so everyone should be able to do it.
Speaker 1 00:11:44 It's, it's something that, you know, are people asking you, how are you really in isolation? Not how are you as a mom, how are you as this? Just how are you right now as an individual person? And I think, uh, that's one of the first and probably the one of the biggest impact or changes that we experience when we have our young children. And you know, from a guy's perspective, rod, I mean, I've spoken a lot from a women's pers our women's perspective there. I I do see that this would impact men as well.
Speaker 2 00:12:16 Yeah. So I think really, I, I understood my role in those first especially three months, um, that my role was just to support you. But having said that, I was back at work after two weeks and I just assumed because you're such a strong woman that you'd be okay and you'd get through it, you know, just like when we get in the ice bath and you always last twice as long as I do, uh, you're no bath jumper. Yeah. So I I I sort of made those assumptions that you, you'll be right. Um, and, you know, I did actually reach out to you at certain points and go, how, how can I help? How can I support? For me, I, I didn't struggle as as much, but I did feel an added weight of pressure on being the sole provider at this point for the family.
Speaker 2 00:13:01 And I always thought you'd go back to work. However, I knew for the next bit that it was all up to me. So I really had to take stock of where I was in my career. So I was stressed at work because I was trying to push my career. I was working long hours when I get home. Um, you know, I knew I couldn't just go sit on the couch, watch tv, uh, I had to actually be there to take care of our little one and and support you. And so I actually felt like I was in a bit of a vice grip where I I, and I was just, this relentless word came in. So while I don't really, um, I'm not predisposed to depression, I was highly stressed and I could see that might've, uh, you know, either taken out on you, I dr I start drinking more.
Speaker 2 00:13:43 Mm-hmm. That's generally the way I, I deal with stress. I, I, I started eating more. You can see where the dad bod stuff comes from and we'll talk about that later. But yeah, so I think for a lot of men from an evolutionary sense, you know, once your, um, partner gave birth to a child, it was really up to you to keep off the saber turf tigers, make sure they had shelter. And we still bring that in today, even, you know, in a modern world. And so there is that sort of internal pressure and a bit of a society pressure for, for men to be, you know, the big strong provider when they might not actually be coping as well as they think. And generally men don't tell people if they're struggling. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think now there's a another
Speaker 1 00:14:25 That's kind of part of the struggle, right? The fact that you're struggling but you feel like you can't tell people you're
Speaker 2 00:14:30 Struggling well, and you've got this baby here, and then you've got your wife you wanna support. And a lot of the way a guy feels he needs support is by internalizing his own problems. Well, I won't burden my wife who's now the main caregiver to the, the kid mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm not gonna burden her with how I'm feeling stressed and upset. So yeah, definitely wo women, women have it a it a lot harder during those first few months. And we, the stats show that, but that doesn't mean that blokes don't have it hard as well.
Speaker 1 00:14:58 Mm. You can really see like the impact on the relationship dynamic there. If you are as a bloke potentially holding in more of your own struggles, uh, and as a woman, you've got an extreme amount of pressure on your shoulders as well. That's, that disconnect starts to creep in, doesn't it? You know, it's very hard to feel connected if you're both under a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2 00:15:25 D you really have to feel connected to yourself in order to best feel connected to your partner. That that's where the information, the love free flows, right? An actual two-way street. And it's very hard to be connected to yourself in those first few months and years of, of a child.
Speaker 1 00:15:43 I think you, you're right, you, you generally being connected to yourself is helpful to feel connected towards another. But I will say I believe that in a relationship, you don't have to feel fully connected to yourself. I think one of the joys of having a partner is that they can help build that connection. Sometimes when you're struggling, and I know this is gonna ruffle a lot of people the wrong way because you know, all of the rhetoric around get to know yourself first, love yourself first, all of that. I actually firmly believe that you, you, you have to do the work too, but your partner can be a massive source of support in helping you to make a shift in yourself as I'm not saying it's all their responsibility, they're a support system. But what we're saying obviously in these New Years is that these younger years of children is that neither of you has that capacity, right?
Speaker 2 00:16:37 And, and perhaps by being supportive and helping them out by being vulnerable to them, you can start to feel a bit more connected to yourself. It's like a bit of a gateway. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, hopefully you'll start to feel that back. But again, look, those first three to three to six months, it, it's hard. It's really hard. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:16:54 It's longer than three to six months.
Speaker 2 00:16:56 <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:16:57 That is that, and that's another fallacy that's out there, isn't it? Yeah. Like, oh, once they hit, and so many people say, once they get to this stage, it's lovely. They start eating and they start doing A, B, and C, and then they start giggling and crawling and all the rest of it. Reality is all children hit milestones at different ages. And just because your kid hits a milestone doesn't mean life gets easy and perfect. It's, it's just a complete and utter fallacy. So everyone is unique, every situation is unique and people need to stop putting these crazy norms on everything. So, okay, moving on. So
Speaker 2 00:17:33 Sleep deprivation if, we'll, I think this, this, uh, how could we not, uh, sort of kick after mental health move on to sleep deprivation. Studies show that parents can sacrifice around two to three hours of sleep per night, um, versus their pre-pregnancy sleep in the first year of a child's life,
Speaker 1 00:17:50 Two to three. It doesn't seem
Speaker 2 00:17:52 <laugh>. I think
Speaker 1 00:17:52 That is grossly inaccurate. Um, that must be at the very,
Speaker 2 00:17:58 Maybe that's combined men's, men's and women. Because if you imagined your cycle, was it two on two off pretty much for six months?
Speaker 1 00:18:05 No, I did not sleep for two hours in a row.
Speaker 2 00:18:07 All right. Okay. I might have to edit that out.
Speaker 1 00:18:09 <laugh>. No, no. Uh, we had, which a lot of people had, um, a, a child that was, she has a whole hole in her heart. And so, um, she couldn't feed very well because it was too exhausting because she was already struggling to keep herself alive, basically. Uh, and so she would fall asleep, still hungry from the exhaustion of trying to feed, and then she would wake up very quickly, straight after because she was still hungry. God bless her. So anyway, that, that, that two to three hours seems light on, but
Speaker 2 00:18:45 Moving forward, so if you and I, if you and I these days and our little ones, um, just in, just in a first year of school now, if we have a bad sleep, and especially if we then get two nights in a row, I can, you can just see a tangible difference to how we, how we feel about ourselves and then how we re react and, and um, how we interact with each other. And then conversely, if we then happen to get a good night's sleep, how fresh and amazing we feel the next day, we can just take on the world.
Speaker 1 00:19:16 I mean, our girl never slept through the night for years. Like never ever. And I can remember at the end of her first year, we were packing up to move to Japan, and we had one night where we sent her to my parents' place to stay the night before we went out there so the Packers could come in the morning and we slept through the night. We got up at like five for the Packers.
Speaker 2 00:19:40 Yeah. We, we were tired from packing, we were moving country moving house, and it was one of the best sleeps we had. But simply because there was no interruptions.
Speaker 1 00:19:49 Oh, it was amazing. It was, I still remember waking up that morning and looking at you and we were saying, this is what the rest of them feel like. <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:56 <laugh>. And again, it's just one of those things where it's just expected that because you are a new parent, that you're gonna get bad sleep. And it's like, yeah, but that's okay. You just have to deal with it. But it impacts you. It impacts you at work, it impacts you with your partner, it impacts how you feel and interact with your baby. And then of course if you, if you growl at it or if you just go, oh, I just can't stand this, you get, get into a shame cycle and yeah. It, it really can be the root cause of a lot of the, a lot of the issues that that go on is that sleep deprivation
Speaker 1 00:20:26 100%. People are not acknowledging deeply enough how difficult that sleep deprivation is. It is so impactful on your mental health, and especially, I'm gonna say for women, because they do the majority of the feeding and, um, the night work with kids in most situations. And it is absolutely, I mean, they call it a torture method, right? Sleep deprivation. And, and people say that as a quip when they're talking, oh, it's a form of torture. Do you hear what you just said? It's a form of torture. And these women are going through it, mostly women over and over again. And it's, it's absolutely crippling having chronic sleep deprivation and we don't acknowledge it enough. And the impact it's having, and again, that comes back to mental health as well. How are we managing with that sleep deprivation? I mean, I remember we got a babysitter in, in the afternoon for two hours and I was dreaming desperately of having some sleep, but I couldn't stay in the house because the baby would then want me. And so I would go to a cafe and just sit there and dream of sleeping <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:21:36 <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:21:38 They seems so crazy, but I was so desperate. I
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Yeah, they, they have all those studies which shows, um, the effects of sleep deprivation and in terms of it being equated to how drunk you are, like, and, you know, so that's, and it was about, you know, not getting behind the wheel when you're sleep deprived. And, and, uh, and the truth is, again, if you are going through your life of the first six to 12 months of your kid's life, and you are half drunk because you're sleep deprived, you can make mistakes, making big decisions. You can just make simple mistakes at home. Um, you know, it's like when you put the kettle in the dishwasher or something like that, right?
Speaker 1 00:22:12 It is. And they're those stories you hear about, you know, where a kid got left in the back of the car Yeah. Or forgotten on the side of the road in the capsule. They're just forgot to put the capsule in. And I fully get that your brain is not working properly because it hasn't been recharged properly. Yeah. And it is such a serious thing and there's absolutely no judgment because nobody in that position would do it any differently. You can't control these outcomes. That's just what your body is struggling with and it can't manage any better than it actually is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:40 And then you've just got those competing priorities. It was like, okay, and I know this is a, this is a one for a lot of guys. It's like, well, yeah, one, you, you have, you have to do it because, um, cuz you're breastfeeding, but I've also gotta go to work the next day and I can't be sleep deprived at work. Uh, I know it's a favorite, isn't
Speaker 1 00:22:57 It?
Speaker 2 00:22:57 It's, it's a big one. I know. I, I probably might have used that <laugh> and I know that a lot of blokes do use that. And that while there's a truth to it, it's also like, uh, well, you know, understand that this woman's body's just getting constantly drained and regenerated. And also you probably come home from work and you might expect her to do all the housework.
Speaker 1 00:23:16 I just find it ironic <laugh> that men say, and again, we are gender normalizing here, which, or generalizing here. And the reality is a lot of these are gendered issues. That means they apply more to one gender than another by quite a significant amount. That's why we are doing that. So we know there are exceptions to these rules. Don't hit us up with all that. We already know that. But we are, we are using some gender generalizations here because it's important to validate those generalizations. And we are are also trying to give a different perspective from the guy and the girl's point of view. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:49 It's important that you see it from, you know, we're, we're talking from our point of views all the time as a man and a woman and a husband and a wife, uh, we're all and a mom and a dad. We're also talking to it from the fact that it's important that we're women understand where blokes are coming from and use me as that conduit. And the same guys listen to Kim, you know, she might give you an insight into how some women are thinking.
Speaker 1 00:24:11 Yeah. And you, you say that perfectly how some women are thinking, obviously I'm not gonna represent all women either. Back to the point you made before though, that, you know, you didn't wanna go to work tired <laugh>, but you, you were happy for me to be left at home looking after the most precious thing in the world to us <laugh> completely sleep deprived, driving to appointments, driving to the shops. Absolutely no worry, because clearly that work isn't as important. I mean, that to me is just absolute bonkers. Like, why would you want your most precious thing in the world to be, to be being minded by someone who is, is so sleep deprived because you need to go and shuffle papers around somewhere.
Speaker 2 00:24:55 I think I did a bit more than shuffle shuffle papers around them. Maybe
Speaker 1 00:24:58 My team,
Speaker 2 00:24:59 My team probably disagrees. But, uh, I think also you, you, you get tunnel vision and it's so hard to be empathetic. You just get very tunnel vision of, and it's not, it's not in a, in a, you know, a a mean way. It's like, especially for a guy, I've gotta perform my role, Kim's role, make sure baby doesn't die Roger's role, make sure we've got a, a roof over our heads and I don't lose my job and I get more money so we can send the kid to the right school, you know, yada yada yada. Mm.
Speaker 1 00:25:31 Yeah. And because of your lo lowered capacity, you don't really look outside of that tunnel, right? Because you are lowered capacity. And the other thing in that, for women that is just such a monster impact, you know, in the mental health and looking at sleep deprivation and all in that space, is they're changing hormones. Which again, I mean we did all these classes before our daughter was born around how to birth her with calm birth and all the rest of it, you know, keep her alive with the little tiny c p r pumps and all the rest of it. But no one talked to me or you about what a massive impact the change in hormones would have on me. What was it gonna feel like in that first week after, uh, the loose conversations around the baby blues? But again, it's just this sort of, oh, this, this, this like side comment like, oh yeah, the baby blues day three ig, look forward to them.
Speaker 1 00:26:26 Why would I look forward to that? You know, where is the, where is the compassion and empathy for, for how serious this stuff is? And where is the professional providing support for that? Inquiring about your mental health and, and making sure that you understand because knowledge is power. If someone had said to me, look, this is actually what's going to happen. Your progesterone and estrogen levels are going to drop significantly after you give birth. You're going to have a hormone called prolactin running through you because you wanna be breastfeeding and it's gonna help you to produce the milk you need for the breastfeeding. And this, that impacts you in this way. If I had understood that better, that means when those things hit in, just like when you have PMs and you have this wild day where you feel like the world is ending and then you check your calendar and you're like, oh, the world's not ending. I'm just getting my period. That's what happens when you give us information about our hormones and what's going to be changing for us.
Speaker 2 00:27:22 You know, we talk a lot about this when we're talking about the differences between men and women is that often for, for men, they have to understand that a woman's body through an evolutionary process has a lot, a lot higher amount of fluctuations and changes in hormones than a male body does. And as a result, they're gonna be far more impacted. And the research shows this, especially in terms of sleep. And I think it's, I
Speaker 1 00:27:53 Think that's such a great perspective though what you're saying there, that understanding that this, that women's hormones do fluctuate. And rather than society making fun of that and you know, oh she's PMSing or she's driving me nuts cuz whatever understanding, actually, you know what, women do suffer way more hormonal changes and it's not fun for them either. In fact, it's the least fun for them. So showing some empathy towards the impact of hormonal changes and the fact that you guys get it easier would be lovely.
Speaker 2 00:28:24 Yes. So take note man, <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:28:28 Okay, the next thing we are going to talk about is shifting identity.
Speaker 2 00:28:33 You know, that first three months, six months, 12 months, again, you're, you're just, you're, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon and it's tough. And finding time to actually take stock of where you are, how you're going, you know, with all the mental health challenge, with the sleep deprivation, with learning, you, you know, this is a new process being a parent especially, you know, for the first time and even for two and three, I know everyone says it gets easier, but you know, you are learning to split yourself, you know, three or four ways. A and your time, three or four ways. So yeah, first six to 12 months get it. The risk of course is is that you know, if you, even if you don't just have one kid, if you have two or three kids, and most kids don't go to school until they're five or six years old, it's very easy after 12 months to not take stock of how you are feeling who you are, and then looking at the relationship, how your partner is and, and how you two are and the relationship together.
Speaker 2 00:29:31 And it's very easy for time to slowly slip by. And that one year, two year, three years, four years, five years, okay, little Timmy's at school and we've got another couple on the way. You could go up to eight years, 10 years where you haven't actually sat and take stock of who you are and where you want to go. And we know that we are different people today from where we were five years ago. Add kids into that mix. We've got different values, we've got a different approach. And if you are not growing together, you are growing apart.
Speaker 1 00:30:05 I think this is a really sneaky one in relationships when we have children because it, it sits sort of in the background. It's not talked, uh, as overtly about shifting identity. And it is really, really pervasive in the way it impacts who you are in your sense of self when at we feel like we are no longer necessarily connected to our identity. Cuz it's not just about a shifting identity. That's one thing to be feeling like this person and then feeling like a different person. I think what we're talking about as well here is that sense of loss of identity. Yeah. Who am I? So who am I actually not knowing? What you are shifting to all you know is that you no longer feel connected to the identity that you had. And one of the things that, you know, or some of the things that sort of come up when we think about how we lose this connection at this period in life, you go from being someone most often being someone who is, is working a certain job and all of a sudden, and again, I'm talking mostly to women.
Speaker 1 00:31:10 I know some men will become stay-at-home dads, but again, it's gendered issues. So I'm gonna talk more to the women here. They're all of a sudden they are no longer in the job, they were in pre-baby. And that pre-baby job, more often than not forms a sense of mastery for us in life. It offers us an opportunity to feel confident in life because we get, we work at something, you know, when we start and when we are really young, obviously we're pretty crap at it, but over time we get better at it and we become more expert at it. And mastery is a really important thing in life. When we, uh, feel a sense of mastery, we feel it has repercussions onwards. We feel like we are more capable and so we, we have higher self-esteem and higher confidence to try new things. So it's kind of cyclical, right?
Speaker 1 00:32:00 We build towards mastery, we get mastery that gives us more confidence to try something else new than we build towards mastery again. But when we stop working in that job, that sense of mastery is no longer part of our day-to-day necessarily. And instead we replaced that time where we were in a space where we had a sense of mastery with time and a space where we don't have a sense of mastery because who on earth knows how to be a parent when they haven't been a parent before? I mean obviously number two and three, I think this is one of the reasons people say in some ways it gets easier, in some ways it doesn't. I just want to really caveat that because I think it's a misconception that life always gets easier when you have more kids because you just know what you're doing. It's also a monster increase in workload. Uh, but the mastery, when that's lost and you replace that with that newness, you, you really become someone who's in a space of, uh, constant learning and and more uncertainty. And that can really impact your sense of self-esteem and your self-confidence.
Speaker 2 00:33:02 Yeah, I, well I love that. I actually had never thought of it that way before. And to me, I look at it in terms of you just look, you completely lose momentum i in your career, uh, so much of what you do is based on momentum. Yeah, you can take breaks, sabbaticals shift jobs, but a lot of it is your building, building, building towards this mastery is what you're talking about. It's unfair, which a lot of people in the PD space are talking these days is don't join your identity to your career into your work. You know, be your own person and do you know what? You've got a choice. You can do that. You, you are more than welcome. And you know, Kim and I, I think before I never tied my, I didn't really tie my identity too much in my work. I did tie it up in, in terms of being better and progressing and you know, getting some of the rewards when I, when I started to really progress in my career while now doing something that I really love and enjoy and I, you know, hoping is helping people.
Speaker 2 00:33:58 I do feel it is becoming more of my identity. But the truth is that if all of a sudden you stopped doing something which was a core part of your identity and you stopped doing it for four, five years, it's such a massive circuit breaker, I could see how it would be so, so very hard. You feel like you're just starting again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the fear around that, am I good enough? You know, am I five years behind everyone else? You know, I just, I can see how that could cripple you and how, you know, you're like, well that's no longer a part of me now cause like I'm gonna have to start again. I'm not where I was with my peers. And you can see how that could impact you. And you know, that little cycle of, oh, who am I really? Am I just a mom?
Speaker 1 00:34:42 Yes. And another, another element of the, uh, loss of identity is the limited social life. So obviously the demands of New Parenthood can significantly not, can do significantly limit your social activities. And we know from research that higher levels of social engagement, um, are correlated with a lower likelihood of experiencing mental health in issues. And in the converse, social isolation is a significant risk factor for mental health problems such as depression and anxiety. And this can really impact your, your sense of identity as well. You know, if I saw myself as someone who was a really social person, I saw myself as an outgoing person, and now all of a sudden I am a person who's at home 90% of the week, that can feel very, a loss of identity is a disconnection from the self and it can feel really alienating. Who is this person that stays home?
Speaker 1 00:35:45 I don't feel, I don't feel uplifted by this person. I don't feel, uh, inspired by this person. And, and I think that word momentum is a really interesting one in this space that you use Raji because it is around i, when we feel connected to our identity, there is a certain momentum and it sort of links to even the mastery thing that I was talking about in the sense that there's a cycle there, right? When you have that connection to identity and that momentum in life, you build more and you go forward and you continue to build that momentum. And, and when we have that sudden boom, that loss of identity and that mark in the sand when we have children, and it really is so, so sudden, it can be, it can be like, I mean the image that comes to my mind is literally like a bomb going off. And everything around you, when you open your eyes after the bomb gone, has gone off, looks different, and you don't recognize the world anymore.
Speaker 2 00:36:40 Our friends, you know, are really core to our identity because they're constant validators and challenges. So they validate who we are through the discussions we have, and they challenge us to, to be better, to look at things differently. And so as we are moving in and out of, of those conversations, we're constantly validating and challenging who we are. If you are just at home with the little one, the baby all day, you get, you're getting challenged, but not so much on specifically who you are. And so again, as time goes by, you're like, am I the same person who I was four months ago, five months ago, six, 12 months ago? So that's why, you know, that social isolation from our, our friends can really have an impact. And that's why it's so important to have the, um, mother's groups, which the government, uh, which the government supports.
Speaker 1 00:37:29 Sometimes <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:37:30 Sometimes <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:37:32 I actually did a research piece when I did my master's in counseling on, on mother's groups and, and they, they, they can be a double edged sword because if you feel connected to the group, that's fantastic. But if you are already feeling isolated and the group has significant differences from the way that you are mothering, for example, or the experience that you are having with sleep and breastfeeding and all the rest of it, it can actually double down on that isolation because you think not only don't I belong to the outer world because I'm home as a mom stuck at home, I also don't belong to my supposed inner world, which is other moms because I don't recognize myself in that group either. And so they can actually be quite isolating. But I do like your point around the friends and the fact that in terms of identity, the energy between friends is something that reinforces our identity and our sense of who we are. Right. In conversations with friends, you're saying, or you were saying like the back and forth. Actually, when we have those social interactions and engagements, we have that opportunity to question ourselves, assert ourselves, reconnect with ourselves, and when you're they be ourselves, be ourselves, <laugh>. I love that. And when you're stuck at home with a, a tiny human, I mean, they're not so great on the reciprocal conversation,
Speaker 2 00:38:47 Yeah, you get a lot of joy, but it's ge generally one way traffic. And um, and then of course when your partner comes home, they're, they're tired from whatever they're doing or they have to go so they don't connect or they have to go and take over the duties of, uh, looking after the little one.
Speaker 1 00:39:03 Yeah, absolutely. All right, next is a change in physical appearance. And, um, we've talked about physical appearance in relationships in the episodes nine and 10, which were our body image in relationships episodes. It's a really important issue for us because we know how important it is in a relationship. And we also know h the potential it has, if we focus on it, we talk about it, we de-stigmatize it, we support it, how impactful it can be on growing your relationship and connection with your partner. So in terms of, you know, obviously when we have a have a child for women, the body image side of things is just for me, so, so much bigger than what we talk about generally in society. People talk about, oh, she has baby weight that term God, but that's one of the things that's thrown around. I've still got my baby weight, like moving on from that.
Speaker 1 00:39:58 It's the, the pre-birth pregnancy, a monster change to your body. And everyone looks at pregnancy like it's the most joyful thing on earth. I'm sure for some women it is. For some women it is not. The change in your body is, again, you're starting to lose your identity. If you are a very fit person who always runs and, and does a lot of burpees and all of a sudden you can't do those things to people who aren't used to that and that isn't there part of their identity, that's gonna sound ridiculous to someone when that is part of their identity, it is going to be a shift for you. Oh, all of a sudden I'm not that really fit person that can do all of those things. Yes, you can adapt your exercise, it's not the same. That's not where I see myself when
Speaker 2 00:40:36 I laugh. I pee
Speaker 1 00:40:37 When I laugh, I pee a lot, <laugh> don't make me laugh. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:40:44 Yes, those sorts of things. And I think that goes to a great point in that people, you know, again, we don't talk enough about the physical damage that is done when we get pregnant, that when the stomach pulls apart, the muscles in the stomach, a lot of women have separation. That can be extremely impactful, ongoing after the birth of the child, when your stomach, when your stomach muscles are separated, trying to to work to bring them back together so that you have core strength. Look at the damage to the, um, pelvic floor, you know, again, the pee thing, like we all, I mean, absolutely, I don't know a mother that wouldn't have wet themselves at some point, whether it's a little we or a big we after you've given birth, you do not have the same control over your bladder. And I did all the pelvic floor stuff beforehand. I went and saw the women's physio and all the rest of it, and it, it's just a huge amount of pressure on your pelvic floor when you're carrying a child. So obviously it's gonna cause damage. And then you have all of the birthing stuff that goes on. What about a cesarean? What about, you know, like I said before, an a episiotomy, whatever it is that
Speaker 2 00:41:45 A natural birth where they have to stitch you up. Um, also
Speaker 1 00:41:48 Damage that can be done by natural births,
Speaker 2 00:41:49 Stretch marks. Just in general, most women will end up with stretch marks.
Speaker 1 00:41:53 I mean that's a really interesting one, right? Because my inclination when you said that was that, well, what's wrong with the stretch marks? But again, it is an identity thing. You have to adjust to having the stretch marks on your body. You have to adjust to having the cesarean, uh, scar on your body and, and maybe the way that the stomach sits differently. You have to adjust to all of these different, the pain that you might experience from, from different injuries, whatever it is the work that you have to do. And it's a sense of that's not who I was. So again, it contributes to that, to that loss of identity. And just on the stats, you know, up to 80% of women experience some level of dissatisfaction after childbirth. And do you know what, again, I reckon that stats low because I'm yet to wo meet a woman who hasn't felt in some way dissatisfied with her body and maybe dissatisfied is, is the, is the wrong word, but hasn't felt a sense of disconnection from her body in some way after childbirth. Because the toll it takes is just so phenomenally huge. It's beyond what we are talking about on a day-to-day basis in society.
Speaker 2 00:42:58 Oh, so for guys, our bodies don't physically change because we're not carrying a child around for nine months, which we then birth through whatever method, and then we don't have a baby sucking on our teeths and we don't have, again, as we talked about earlier, all those hormones in us changing. But you know, again, it's important to give a guy's perspective on this, but more from how we see our bodies and because of the break and routine, the stress at work, the stress at home, the sleep deprivation part of you losing your identity, and it gets normalized in the fact that we have this thing called the dad bod. Now again, this is a bit of a double-edged sword because a dad bod is, uh, in a way, a bit of a way of embracing the fact that as a man your body changes. Uh, and that really is just to do with one, you're getting older.
Speaker 2 00:43:47 And two, the fact that you are your, you put a lot of life stresses on your bodies, but conversely, the dad bod can be a bit of a, a name and shame tool. So look, it's, it's only a small thing, but it, it is an i it is an impact on guys. But what I would say, guys, especially around body image issues, and we do know that they impact women a lot more than they impact men. This is what the research tells us, even though men won't always tell a, a study or a researcher, but it's true. And we haven't gone through this traumatic, um, and life-changing physical event, but there are heap of ways that men can support their partner. And again, just coming back to an evolutionary sense is you've committed to have a child with your partner and you, that means you've committed to your partner's body changing and you owe it to her. Ooh, I like that. To embrace, to embrace her body and the impact it's had and the ongoing impact, you know, you cannot expect her to be the same size. You cannot expect her to, um, look the same. And you know, you have to be there to support her, to make her feel good. And trust me, if you do, you're gonna see benefits on the other side of that being a better husband and also having a more intimate relationship with her wife. And I don't wanna jump ahead there, we'll talk about that soon. I
Speaker 1 00:45:06 I think that's a really great reminder, the commitment. Um, but the other thing I will just wanna say on that is I actually think you are a hundred percent right. We, we do wanna be giving the perspective, the other perspective here, because part of what we wanna do here today is build empathy and understanding in this really difficult season of life and space of life we're, a lot of couples have told us they really struggle because I think they lack understanding for what their partner is, is going through men for women, women for men. And you know what that is going to impact your identity. What you've talked about the change in sleep routine for men, the change in expectations of availability, just like with women, you know, you are going to struggle to get your exercise in and feel the same. And if that's a big part of your identity, then that is going to impact your sense of identity.
Speaker 1 00:45:53 You're also, like you said, you, you're a new dad. That is a new identity. So it's not to say that women are the only ones struggling. And I think it's a really interesting, uh, perspective that you offer there on, on even the physical changes for men. Whilst you think, yes, the majority of changes obviously are for women directly, and the men's are more indirect in a sense, it doesn't mean it's not impacting your, your sense of identity. So, uh, I I enjoyed hearing from you on that, Roger, uh, the last one. And I know there's lots of things that impact identity, but the last one we are gonna cover today is, uh, the, the career side of things. And already touched on this with the pre-baby job. So where you work before you have your baby, but then there's also the career, which is how we see ourselves in the future in our work.
Speaker 1 00:46:43 And when, when you have children, there can be this significant sense of unknowing and uncertainty. When will I be ready to go back to work? How will I leave my baby? Do I care about this job anymore? Your perspective of the world obviously starts to shift. You have a little person and you think about things a little bit differently. And so will I have lost some of my skills? Will working part-time mean I'm less valuable to the firm and therefore have less opportunities? These are all uncertainties that you're going to be dealing with, and that loss of identity is already an uncertain space. So it's going to be impacting your sense of who you are because you don't have the answers necessarily right now.
Speaker 2 00:47:31 You are amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship,
Speaker 1 00:47:35 Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living, the team life, relationship, insights and conversations, head over to kim and rod.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
Speaker 2 00:47:45 And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and it'll make us really happy.
Speaker 1 00:47:53 Until next time, keep on living the team life.
