Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Today, we're unpacking a concept that supports why leaning into the team is actually the only path forward for a successful relationship. The concept of interdependence. And guess what? Interdependence exists in your relationship, whether you like it or not. So you have a choice. You can either lean into interdependence and grow your relationship because of it, or you can pull away and rail against the idea of it. Are you ready to find out what the power behind interdependence is? Well, get comfy, because we're digging right on into it today.
Hey, we're Kim and Rog, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should. We think about the future as a field of possibilities, and we let joy be our compass.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage. And it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house stripping business, we've achieved some big dreams. And most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Pick conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts, and tales from our own lives as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: These are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfy in whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Today on the podcast, we are digging into the idea of the question, really, will I lose myself if I put my relationship first?
It's something that there's definitely a certain cohort of people who bring this up with us. But if I'm putting the relationship first, where am I in all this? And there's a particular concept that relates to this question that we thought would be really helpful to unpack it. It's a concept that we first heard of from Esther Perel.
She's basically the godmother of it. And it's called interdependence. And that's what we're going to explore today, this concept, because hopefully it will help you answer that question. Will I lose myself if I put my relationship first? So what is interdependence? Basically, this concept.
The concept of interdependence is like a figure eight. If you think about it, it's the idea that what I do not only affects you, but it influences and affects what you then do in return.
I guess the concept of, like, symbiosis, we live from one another and we affect one another sort of comes to mind.
This idea that if I change my behavior, eventually this will cause a change in your behavior.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Like those little birds that sit in the hippos mouths and all the alligators mouths and they pick out all the yummy bits and the alligator just sits there with its mouth open.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess so. Because the bird's behavior changes the alligator's natural instincts, right?
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: Is that what you mean?
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Well, yeah, they've got a symbiotic relationship.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's actually a cool way of thinking about it.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: I mean, it didn't seem like it at first, but we got there.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Bit of a drastic example. But you're right in that the natural behavior of the crocodile is to chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp. The hippo is to bite the bird and eat it, but they will allow the bird to be there and change their own behavior as a result. And then they live in harmony together and they each get something out of it. So that's actually a really lovely example.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: You're welcome.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: So let's, let's dig into this concept of interdependence a little. Little beyond the bird and the hippo. Basically, in, in relationships it refers to partners acknowledging and recognizing the value of the bond they share. And as I said, that that figure eight relationship exists. What I do will not only affect you, but it will actually impact the way that you then carry out yourself in the relationship in the world. And it involves partners giving and relying on each other for various types of support, emotional, physical, financial, and domestic, and influencing one another in the ways that they give this to each other.
It does not mean a loss of self. And interdependence is about recognizing and valuing the presence of the team. It's about understanding that you and your partner are not operating in isolation, but rather that you're behaviors, as I've said, influence each other, that your actions affect each other and then affect the actions that you're going to mirror back to that person. And this mutual influence is a natural and essential part of a healthy relationship. And we'll break this down further as we get into the show. Mutual influence, it does not imply a lack of independence. And this is what we'll get right into because people might be thinking, well, that means then I'm not able to independently be myself, I'm going to be morphed into this other person. It's not the case. It just acknowledges that what we do has an impact on our partner and what they do has an impact on us and the behaviors we then have. It's about understanding that no matter what, the influence exists because you share a bond. So how you choose to use that is up to you, but that influence will live there no matter what. And that's the beauty of interdependence. It's understanding. Interdependence lives in a relationship no matter what.
It's how you choose to use it. Whether you lean in and realize that what I'm doing is impacting you and what you're doing and what you're doing is impacting me and what I'm doing, or whether you try to fight against it and pull apart from it.
And I just want to distinguish between this quickly and co dependence because I know that that's a term with certainly a lot of difficulty or negative stigma around it. Codependence is different in that it involves an unhealthy level of reliance in a relationship, and not just an unhealthy level of reliance. That unhealthy level of reliance then goes on to negatively impact someone's wellbeing. So interdependence is related to a healthy, deep bond that acknowledges that our actions and behaviors have an effect on the other's actions and behaviors. And in that, that infinity shape sort of relationship of going back and forth with one another without erasing any sort of sense of individuality, there's no negative impact out of it.
That's really when you stepped into the co dependence, that very unhealthy level of reliance on your partner.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So, sweetie, when we're talking about interdependence, I think a way I like to think of it is as your family and your relationship has its own ecosystem.
I think why this is important is because in an ecosystem like we see in nature is if you, every action of an individual impacts the other individuals in that ecosystem. So if you do something, it will impact your spouse, it'll likely impact the kids as well. And whether you. I think what you were really, what really struck home for me when you, when you were going through what interdependent means is whether you intend for your actions to impact the family or nothing. There will be an impact. Yes, because there is, there's always an interconnectedness between you and your partner and the family unit. And by understanding that it can help you see the broader impact of your actions. It can also help you see that when you do positive actions, it has a really beneficial impact on the family, while negative actions, even though you're thinking, well, I'm just doing this for myself, or I'm not meaning to impact, it will impact the family. So your family and your home are their own ecosystem. An example might be, hey, I just want to go out and have drinks with the boys or my work crew on a Friday night. Well, when I get home, I'm going to snore, which will give my partner a bad sleep. When I get up, I'll probably be a bit grumpier and shorter with the kids and my partner. I might forget, you know, little Timmy's footy boots and Giselle's ballerina costume. And, you know, my wife has to then rush to wherever we are impacting her day. And so no one's happy here, there's an extra load put on everyone. So just one little action, which you'll think, hey, I have the right as an individual to go relax with my friends. Yes, you do. But that downstream impact on the family unit and the ecosystem is way more than you actually thought it'd be, and you didn't mean it to be, but it happened, and it was unavoidable.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: I absolutely love the imagery of the ecosystem, because when we talk about, and I think there's something really peaceful, when we think about ecosystems and nature living in harmony, it's about a sense of mutual understanding that we all are one thing. We are one environment, and that environment exists either healthily or not so healthily as a result of all of us. There is no one person that can or one thing in an ecosystem that can lift an environment if the other things are not also being lifted. It is. It is. You are, and it is because of each and everything within that space. And I know a lot of those words sort of sound about a bit airy fairy, but for me, that really makes a lot of sense around how beautiful the concept of interdependence is in that the potential, if you lean into the understanding that you have the ability to influence this ecosystem and create harmony through your actions and the knock on effect, the vibrations that they send down through the rest of the ecosystem is such an exciting concept as well.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So another example might be, and maybe you experienced this when you were a kid with your family, is someone comes home from work and they can do two things. They can open the door, whistle their way in, throw their bags down and go, it's Friday, daddy's home, you know, who wants pizza for dinner? Come give me a hug. Even though they might have had a really stressful day. Or they can open the door, slam the door, throw their stuff down, don't talk to me, walk in and everyone's on tender hooks. Everyone's just sitting there going, we've got to wait 30 minutes till daddy has his beer or till he's eaten before he's calmed down and he's. And he's less stressed. I reckon a lot of people might have felt that when they were kids and you knew that every day at 630 there was going to be a negative or a positive impact to the house. And that really affected the ecosystem of the house and even you personally as you grew up.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: That is really, really good. I love that one. And that energy is what we're talking about, energy flow. And I guess that's what Esther Perel describes in the infinity sort of shape. You are flowing energy, you are pushing energy in one direction, and as a result, that same energy gets propelled back at you. And I think that's a really lovely way of thinking about it. Let's unpack a little bit further, though, why it does not mean a loss of self, because that's really at the crux of what we're trying to do today, is explain interdependence and the significant benefit from becoming aware of it exists either way, and that it is not going to cost you to be aware and lean into this concept. So really, interdependence exists no matter what. And when we, when we acknowledge it and use it to our advantage, we often reflect what a healthy relationship dynamic would look like. We are taking on that bond and paying attention to it, supporting the needs of the unit, of the ecosystem, of the whole environment. And this means that couples support each other's individuals goals. It's not about saying we're only one ecosystem, therefore we can't have anything individual in there. You absolutely can. But how amazing when that environment lifts for the individuals that are in that system, how amazing when you're supported in that to go out and seek your goals, that energy is still flowing, right? That good energy, it's not taking anything out of the relationship. In fact, it's giving more, because you project that positive energy, that support towards your partner, and they feel that and it grows and they come right back at you with something even bigger in the positive stakes. So that interdependence builds that connection and bonding, it strengthens the relationship, it fosters a supportive environment, where both partners are encouraged to thrive because they are giving one another this positive energy that's lifting. I mean, that's what we feed off in life, this energy between each other to flow and move forward and progress and do the things we want to do. And that mutual support system enhances the overall health and the resilience of the relationship.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I also think there's a bit of a fallacy out there that people believe that if you are putting the team first and living an interdependent life with your partner, that you have to make a lot of sacrifices. But if you put the individual first, that you're not going to be making any sacrifices. And that's just not true. Yes, if you put the team first, if you have an interdependent life with your partner, you will have to make sacrifices.
But if you put the individual first, the sacrifices you will be making is having a strong teammate is having a partner, and a strong relationship with them is having a strong relationship with your kids. And I'll give some examples here. Again, it's like you might love playing golf on a Saturday morning. You did it all through your relationship before, before you had kids, before you really settled down.
But do you know what you and your partner value in an interdependent relationship is you value your kids playing sports on the weekend. And so something has to give. You can even put the individual first and sacrifice maybe your wife's happiness, or your partner, your husband's happiness and the kids happiness and what you really believe for them. Or you can sacrifice your golf to make sure that the kids get to play little league, I just want to.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Dig into that one because it's such a good one. And it's not just what you're saying, rogie, it's at that next level. And you did touch on it. You said you can sacrifice the kids happiness. If we think about that flow of energy, which is what we're describing, and how you can send it even negative across the pond, or you can send it positive and it'll come back at you the same way. If we think I turn up for my kids sports game, what happens to those kids?
Those kids feel seen. They feel like they've got a safe attachment. They feel value in themselves. So what do they fly back at you with in the home environment? And what does your partner do? You turn up for the kids golf game and your partner says, family matters. This makes me feel great. I'm going to come back with family matters as well. I'm going to lean into that value as well. And those sets of positive energy come right back at you. And that's that movement, right. Of interdependence in that space where you choose. I'm sending this out to the people I love and they're going to send it right on back to me. That's the beauty of it.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Women do this all the time. They sit there often and go, I love my career. It's super rewarding. But as a family, we've decided to have two to three kids. And that means that I know I'm going to have to be a stay at home mom for at least three to five to seven years. Now, that is a huge sacrifice. But they're doing it for the team.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And for the children as well. You're so right. You'll hear women say, I want them to have that experience. I'm wanting to give that to them. And they will give that back from the parent to the child as well. I mean, it's not just husband to wife, is it? It's wife to husband. It is really the family is what, interdependence exists in the family as well.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: That's right. So why is interdependence so hard? Where does this fear of losing ourselves come from? Well, again, let's use Esther Perel's view on this. She believes that there's a constant push and pull of individualism versus interdependence in relationships. She believes this is natural. She also argues that while contemporary society places a high value on individualism, there's this inherent human need for connection and intimacy, and they're constantly pushing and pulling against each other. So couples, as a result, have to maintain a balance. So she believes that, yes, there is a need for autonomy, of personal growth, of self expression, independence. This is crucial for one's own self worth, but there's that underlying need and desire for connection, the need for intimacy support, emotional connection. And this is fundamental to our well being as well. And relationships also provide a sense of belonging. And the truth is, research shows that people in happy, secure relationships are more likely to live longer and have better life and happiness outcomes than those in the unsecure relationships or people who are single.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So what you're really unpacking there is, if I've understood that right, Rogie, is that people are scared of leaning all into the relationship, which would mean really acknowledging and, and placing value on interdependence because they feel this real push for autonomy that's, that's natural within us. But at the same time, humans are deeply relational and they do have a desire for connection. So if we think through the lens of our desire for connection, we can really start to see that value in interdependence. And also if we understand that it isn't taking away our autonomy, in fact, it's sharing. It's sharing what we want out of life. It's sharing who we really are at our core and allowing that relationship and that beautiful energy flow to support that within that space that we've got and to generate that same support back towards our partner. Interdependence exists no matter what. That's what I want people to understand today, is that it's whether you're aware of it or not and whether you lean into it or not. If you're pulling all the time for independence from the relationship because you don't want to have to be responsible for the flow on effect you have, you can't win because it exists no matter what you pull away. You say, I don't want to knock on effect. I don't want to deal with this. It happens anyway because you are living with this person or you are relating to this person in a deep and intimate way. The bond is there so your behaviors will affect them whether you want them to or not. The question is, how do you want them to affect your partner and how do you want that then to come right back to you.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So what you're saying is that interdependence and the ecosystem exists no matter what.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: And so you can either lean into it.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Or you can lean out and focus on the individual and fear that you're going to lose yourself. But when you do lean out and you do put the individual first, there's the interdependence is there no matter what. So there's a negative impact, there's a constant rift, and instead of. But instead of a pull, there's more push and so there's an imbalance.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Yes, I like that. Good summary. So let's think about it from a sporting team perspective, just to give another, I guess, take on it or an example that might be more relatable for some people. So just like a successful sporting team, a successful relationship requires each individual to work on their own skills and bring their best selves. You do need to show up with the best stuff you have. And just as athletes maintain fitness and practice techniques and strive for excellence, excellent individuals in a relationship do need to focus also on their own personal growth and well being. That's what we're saying. You're not giving up those things about yourself. In fact, you need to bring your best self to the relationship because that's what it deserves and that's what will harness the power of the interdependence best. But really, for ultimate, ultimate success in the relationship, there needs to be an ongoing awareness that every player is related to the other player. So I'm jumping back and forth between sports, but in a team, for example, you cannot possibly think I'm the superstar and therefore I do not need to worry about anyone else on this team. We've seen it before in teams where teams fail because someone is acting alone, they're not realising that them acting alone not only doesn't share the ball or whatever it is with the team, but it says to the team, we're not a team, we don't work together, we don't consider each other. And that flow of energy goes out and comes back just as it is. And we know that doesn't work within a sporting team and it doesn't work within a relationship. So the concept needs to be that every person, every partner in the relationship and every player in the team impacts every other person. That ecosystem exists. And there was a great documentary I watched, I've mentioned it before and I can't remember what it was called, but it was about.
It was about a basketball coach who coached the Boston Celtics in the mid two thousands. I think his name was Doc something, and he taught the team Ubuntu, which I had actually come across years ago in some work I'd done in schools with kids who were having a tough time staying in school. And Ubuntu means that I am what I am because of who we all are. And I love this concept. It's an african concept because it says that what I do impacts the people around me, what they do impacts me. I only exist within an ecosystem. And what a beautiful concept. It's not just about saying I can do something for the ecosystem, it's saying I belong in an ecosystem because I also feed off that ecosystem. And that's certainly how it is in the relationship. I benefit from this beautiful concept of belonging to this ecosystem.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: I love that, babe. You know, I love a good sporting analogy, and as we often say, in what other collaborative context do you not put the team first? In what other collaborative context do you put the individual first and think that's going to get you the best outcome for the individuals and the team? So as usual, we're going to leave you with some hints and tips on how you can, I guess navigate your way through this push and pull, and maybe highlight where you feel that there is an impact on the home ecosystem, on the interdependence of. Of the interdependence of the couple, and move forward in the right direction. Maybe when the individuals are both individuals or one individuals, pushing a bit more instead of feeling the pool of the couple. Esther Perel gives some great advice on this. She believes that you should, number one, embrace the paradox. Embrace the fact that there is a need for putting the team first, but also for seeking out individuality within the team. And I think this is really important. It's like naming the elephant in the room. Have a discussion with your partner. It's like, babe, I love you. We need to always put the team first, but how can we support each other to do the things that really matter individually? Because you're not insane person. You are going to want to have individual pursuits. And so figuring out way to support each other in some of your endeavors or the ones that really matter is really important. And that's how you actually, which is the number two tip, create space for individuality.
Prioritize with your team goals, some individual goals. Set aside space in the week, in the month, in the year, with your time, with the time and effort it requires to put in individual pursuits. Now, of course, you're going to have to say no and sacrifice a lot of individual pursuits for the team. But there are definitely some you can support each other. And the final tip, she says, is when you do have those individual pursuits, get curious about what they are. Take an interest in what your partner individually likes to do. So you might hate golf, you might hate book club, or you might hate the music your partner likes. Or, you know, it just bores you. But us seeking questions, find out more about it. That shows that you are supporting them in the individual pursuit.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: All right, Reggie, what was your gold nugget out of today's episode?
[00:26:35] Speaker B: I think the fact that there's, that interdependence exists between a couple no matter what. And so how you actually lean into that as the team or lean out of that as the individual and the balance between the two is what's really important.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I love today actually thinking about the ecosystem. You came up with that analogy. And I just, I think it's so brilliant even thinking about, you know, when someone says someone's moved, like a child, for example, has moved schools and they're thriving in that environment, and, you know, that that ecosystem, they belong and they fit there. And that energy flow that interdependence is going both ways. They're working their best so the teachers are working their best so they're working their best and you know that flow is is right in place and I just love that idea in a relationship because it isn't about at all giving up your individualism. In fact, you will thrive in an ecosystem that acknowledges its interdependence. You will thrive as an individual and the team will thrive and I love that idea.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: You're amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living the team life relationship insights and conversations, head over to kimandroj.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and it will make us really happy.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: Until next time, keep on living the team life.
