Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Trigger warning this episode contains discussions about domestic violence and community violence towards women, which may be distressing for some listeners. Consider whether this episode is right for you at this point in time, and if you do find this content disturbing or it brings up any issues for you, please reach out to 1800. Respect hey, we're Kim and Rog and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should, we think about the future as a field of possibilities and we let joy be our compass.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house flipping business, we've achieved some big dreams and most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Pick conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts, and tales from our own lives as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: These are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfort in whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: So today we're going to talk about why we need to be giving women space to talk right now.
And I have initiated this podcast, although, sorry, I take that back, I have led on how I wanted this podcast to go, but Rog actually initiated the idea for it, which I really, really appreciate, and I'll talk more to that later on in the podcast. But basically, I've had this pervasive feeling recently of hyper vigilance. Anyone who's anxious will be familiar with hyper vigilance. It means that you are exactly what it says, hyper. So extra vigilant, which means alert, alarmed all the time. And I talked to Rog about this over the past few weeks and realised just how important these conversations have been for me and opening up to rog and having his care and support and curiosity and holding the fact that he held me in those spaces. And I thought he asked if we wanted to bring this to the podcast. And I thought, you know what? This might benefit relationships. This might really benefit relationships because women are struggling. I'm talking to other women, they're struggling at the moment, like myself, and a relationship is such an important, safe space for women not always. That's what we're talking about today, obviously, but it can be such an important safe space for women that in these times of deep hurt and uncertainty, that safe space can be healing in some of what we're dealing with. And that's why we're here talking about the huge amount of domestic violence and community violence we've been seeing in recent times where women have been the victims of male perpetrated attacks.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you so much, sweetie. I really appreciate being able to have this conversation with you and, you know, apologize upfront if I say something that might not be not correct. But, you know, I want to. I want to try find out more, but I might not always go the right way about it. And we. I think we're mostly aligned on the issue, and I'm not talking about domestic violence, obviously.
It's terrible. I think one of the fundamental things I want to do as a partner is create a safe space for the person I love so she can be her best person.
If you're physically or emotionally or financially or whatever, abusive to your partner, you are 100% undermining that safety. But there's another way that we can actually promote safety, and that's being empathetic to our partner's needs. And sometimes that can be hard because we're not. I'm not a woman. It's very hard to understand women sometimes. There wasn't Stephen Hawking said that, or Einstein said that, you know, the biggest mystery of the universe was women having this. They're pretty smart. So. But having said that, it's, I think. I think every man out there can understand. Every man out there should want to know more about their partner and how they're thinking and how they're feeling and should want to have more tools in their toolkit to be empathetic, to be emotionally supportive. And so I've noticed in the last couple of months this has been impacting Kim. So that's why, I guess, asked her if she wanted to talk about it today.
[00:05:37] Speaker A: So I want to talk about what happens when we experience these events, these very public events, why talking about it can be helpful for some people. Not all, not everybody wants to talk about stuff. That's not how we're all programmed, why talking to your male partner could be especially helpful for some women, like it has been for me. And just talk briefly about how men can create a safe space for their partner to be able to do that, if that's what they want to do.
So let's talk first about what happens when we experience these events because most of us have not been directly impacted by the recent events. And I'm talking about the many, many male perpetrated attacks on women this year that have come in a variety of heinous forms.
We're not individually involved necessarily. There will be people who were individually impacted, but we still experience this community violence, this domestic violence that impacts the community, all these otherwise named public tragedies. Even if it doesn't directly impact us, we can often suffer as a result from these events. And that's what I've been experiencing.
Some of the things that can come up for people is our feeling of sadness for the people who have been impacted, the victims and what's happened to them.
A feeling of sadness for the victim's loved ones and what they are enduring in the face of loss. A feeling of sense of loss for our own sense of safety in the world. And this has been a big one for me, a feeling, a sense of loss for the trust we had in community and neighbourhood and fellow man. Another big one for me, feeling a sense of loss of trust in authorities. So the government, police, for example, and for many women, there will be past trauma and feelings associated with that that will have been deeply and repeatedly triggered by the events that have occurred.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we've all seen it on the news recently.
I don't know the statistics of whether it's happening more now than it wasn't before or just been. It's been. It's more highlighted about it, but it's everywhere. And I don't think it really.
I feel empathy for the people that it's happening to. And, you know, most recently, there was a mother and a daughter murdered as a result of a domestic violence situation. And it makes you feel sick in your stomach.
But women are generally more empathetic. And I know that Kim is a very empathetic person. And we recently spoke to Penny Moody and Hugh van Kahlenberg. And one of the first questions we asked him is, well, Hugh, what's Penny? Superpower? And he said, it's empathy. And her name would be Emily. Empathy is her superhero name. It's because she's so empathetic. And he actually said she will see terrible things on tv and it will deeply affect her. And Kim's the same. Kim will say something on tv, she'll hear about it, and it will deeply impact her. And that's a different experience from I like to shut it out. I don't even like watching the news these days because maybe because I feel it will impact me too much, but Kim does absorb it, and I guess it would be really good, if you feel like it, to share some of the ways that it has impacted you.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I really appreciate you making that point, though, Rog, because it definitely feels true to me that I notice amongst girlfriends and women in general out in public, they're voicing how upset they are by what's happening. It is impacting them deeply. Even if, as I said at the beginning, they're not personally involved, women are generally more empathic. There's research around this. It is something that we take on when we see these events, something that we think about. Not all women, but a lot of women do struggle with that deeper sense of empathy and then the intrusive thoughts and the intrusive feelings they get as a result, because they connect more to the events and consider the events more, rehash the events more. And I guess, for me, that's what's been happening. You know, I've really, really noticed it after the Bondi. I'll go back to what sort of. I've noticed. I've really noticed it after Bondi. So the man that attacked the women in the shopping center, and, yes, he also attacked a man. As I understand it, it was gender motivated. He attacked the man who was a security guard. So this was a man who was trying to interfere with his attack on women. So he wasn't going after men. And you can even see it in the video footage, that he actually avoids going after a man who's standing between him and women.
And after that attack, I mean, sure, intrusive thoughts, just like a pervasive sense of discomfort, sickening feelings in my gut.
I've had many feelings. I felt shocked when I saw it. I felt grief, I felt sadness, I felt fear. I felt less safe going to the shops. I even. Even. You said to me, actually, rog, be careful when you go to the local shopping mall.
[00:11:35] Speaker B: And I said, and I wasn't trying to scare you.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: No, but you were serious.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: I was being serious. I wasn't trying to be a dick. I was actually like. But I think that. I don't know if that made it worse. Maybe for you.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: It did make it worse for me, but that wasn't the intention. And I understand that. It did make me more alarmed because whilst I was thinking about it, I had thought. I had rationalised in my head that it wouldn't happen here. And once you said it, I thought, oh, my God, maybe it will happen here.
So definitely a loss of sense of safety. And these feelings that are coming up have created these symptoms in my life of sleeplessness and hyper vigilance, meaning when I go out into the community, and I'm already a very vigilant person, when I go out into the community, I am on watching everything. Everything. And not just in the community. When I go to bed at night, when I close my eyes, I see images of what's been on the news. It's horrendous. When I wake up in the night, the images just come flooding back in because my brain is finally quiet and I've got no other way to escape them, which means they're living there all the time.
It's. It's a lot to be carrying around, and it's the reason I wanted to come on and talk about it, because I was carrying it on my own, and I decided to start to open up to you. And it is helping me. It is helping me to get through this situation.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And one of the reasons why I think it's important we discuss it. And, you know, I noticed that Kim and I was wanting to just. Kim was wanting to discuss this with me in the morning when we do our morning, you know, 30 plus minutes of, of, you know, breakfast, coffee, and talking about life, she was sort of bringing up these issues, not directly, but just how she was feeling. And I noticed a pattern, especially the last couple months, of she is feeling a bit more worried, feeling not down, but maybe a bit dismayed about things and maybe scared or maybe that, you know, and also sometimes like, oh, no, this isn't fair. Like, why is it like this?
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, definitely feeling angry.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: Why is it like this? And I can get that as well, because some of the pushback on saying, oh, you know, the Bondi junction attack wasn't attack against women, was just terrorism or this, you know, this double murder suicide had nothing to do with domestic violence. And it's like, why are men so often afraid to label something as an attack against a woman, as something as gendered or, you know, something as domestic violence?
What is it? What is it that challenges you about that? Is it because you can't face up to it? I actually don't understand why people would. Why a man would say, oh, that's not it. You know, oh, it's just a person attacking another person. It's not about women.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: This is such a big point for women. I just got to jump on this because it drives me nuts when people say, and you know what? It's not just men. And I'm here for women today. That's why we're doing this. Me too.
But seriously, I hear other women say this as well. Stop man bashing. It's not fair on my sons.
I am speechless when people say that. I am not man bashing. I am standing up for women who are being impacted every single day. That is not man bashing. I do not say things that are not facts. I state facts. This is a gendered issue. That means majority wise, women are the victims, men are the perpetrators. That's called a gendered issue. It's where the statistics show that there's a strong predication for something towards one gender. This is a simple fact and we have to take that into consideration because who's more vulnerable then? Obviously the gender who's being attacked, they're the gender that are more vulnerable. Therefore we have to look after them more. We have to put laws in place to protect them more. That's how it has to work. That's what a gendered issue is.
Do we have to steer too far in one direction to get it right? Probably, yes, because we haven't steered anywhere near, far enough in that direction yet.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: You also got, you got to set boundaries. I remember growing up, my, I've got a sister who's only like a year younger than me. And my mum was like, you, like, if I hit her, if I yelled at her, if I was mean to her, he was like, you do not do that to your younger sister. And I think if I'd had a younger brother, it would have been different. She still said, you know, you're supposed to protect your younger brother. But she was hard. She was, you do not do that to a young woman. You do not do that to youngsters. You are bigger, you are stronger, you are uglier, you're more aggressive, you do not do that. And I think since then I've had a real respect and I'm not sitting here. And it didn't make me weaker, it made me stronger, it made me more respectful.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's another important point. You know, men are bigger. And again, this gets, so what? Women can be angry, women can be this.
Understand? When someone is bigger or something is bigger, it's scarier. This is a simple evolutionary thing.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: That's why they have weight division.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: This is not complicated. And, and so it is scarier for women. We, we biologically see a man and you, whether you are conscious of it or not, you are aware they are bigger than you, you are aware of that. And again, this is why we're here today. I'm talking about what we're carrying right now on the inside, because women are carrying so much on the inside right now. So much fear, so much trepidation, so much loss of sense of safety, loss of trust, all of these things around. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation, because it's really friggin heavy, and I don't want to carry it on my own anymore, and I don't want to be responsible for change on my own. As a woman, it's up to you blokes to stand up and make the change. You guys are majority wise, cause of the problem. And do not say to me, but I'm not doing it. Do we not fight for the vulnerable in our community? Women are vulnerable. It is up to men to step up and take care of this situation that they've created.
It's. It's just mind boggling to me that people wouldn't want to do that.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lot of times we have our head in the sand as men. We don't want to take ability for our own actions, let alone others people. And, no, no, it's not our fault. But there's all these little things in life that we do, whether it's based in, you know, the patriarchy or what it is based in. Like, for me, I just. I think men should be better. You know, I felt when I was younger, and I didn't have the faculty, so I wasn't the man I wanted to be. I had to be kind to myself, but I had to push myself and go, you need to be a better man, mate. Like, you need to step up. You need to respect women more. You need to respect yourself more. So it's not about being hard on men. It's holding them to account and expect them to be better. And I feel that men. I really do feel that men. Men can be better and should be better, and that should be something to be proud of. That should be something to be proud that you can be better and that you can make a difference. And isn't that what we want? We want to be people who make difference, who are strong, who are proud, who move forward, not people who cower behind a curtain of, oh, it's not our fault. Oh, you should leave us alone. Oh, don't. Don't. You know, I'm worried about young. About young men. We should be holding each other to account, supporting each other, and growing and.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: Understanding that you come from a place of privilege. As a man, you have a greater sense of safety in the world. From day Dot, you literally feel more safe in the world from day Dot. And I know there are males who have suffered in childhood who would not have felt more safe. I am talking about majority wise, majority wise in the community. Men feel more safe than women from the beginning. As little boys, as young teenage men, as men in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, they feel more safe because they've had far more incidents of violence against them. So there's a position of privilege that you can use, use your sense of safety, use what you have to fight for someone else who needs the support, who doesn't enjoy that position and would really love to feel more safe like you do, would really love not to have to worry about things like I do at the moment. I went for a walk around our local lake the other day.
It's a family filled area, and I got to a stretch of bush and a man was walking towards me and there was no one around us. And my heart started racing. I'm thinking things like, how loud can I scream? Where's the quickest exit point? This was just a local man walking past me. He did not look any way dangerous. He did not look anything unique. But because of all of the things that have been happening towards women, all of these incidents and acts of violence, I'm thinking, I don't. I just don't know. I just don't know. I just can't trust men right now.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: It's like your fundamental baseline for feeling safe. It's moved, has been moved, right?
[00:20:59] Speaker A: 100% it's moved. And obviously the events at Friday last week, a mother and daughter protecting our mother and daughter fleeing from domestic violence, having you can't even.
You can't even really describe it because I don't know for people, if they've read in detail what happened to those women at the end, I won't talk about it because it's just beyond that plays over in my mind all the time. Since Friday, I have not stopped thinking about. Every night I lay on bed, that's what I think about.
And I think about how I protect myself and I think about how I protect my friends and my daughter.
And that is so unfair.
I should be able to go to sleep in peace, and I'm not. Because people are behaving. Men are behaving in this way. It's really, really impacting me. And that's why we're here, because talking to your partner might actually be helpful. And I felt when I started talking to rog about it, that I was being seen and I was being held by a guy who was safe. And that actually reminded me that, you know what? There are a lot of safe guys out there. And that was a really important reminder for me. It's a really important reminder. This guy is so safe that I can lay all of my most vulnerable feelings at his feet and he's going to hold them for me. And that, that has been really powerful, and that's why we're talking about it. And even within that, you know, we've had back and forths because I see how hard this is for Rog to understand how deep this goes for women. I told him a couple of months ago about an incident at the beach. We have a nudist beach near us. I go running there. I love running there. He told me to stop running there. He doesn't like it. He doesn't feel like it's safe because it's all blokes who go there. And something happened at that beach. And Rog said, right, don't go there ever again. And I'm so angry that he said that. Why are my rights removed? Because other people want to misbehave. Why is my ability to go to the beach removed? Because someone else. What I wanted him to say was, I'm going to contact police or counsel for you and I'm going to make a complaint.
I had to explain that to him. And having him say, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that really meant a lot to me.
I want to know that men care. So talking to a guy who's holding my feelings, talking to a guy who's willing to say, I'm sorry, I want to change, help me, help me to grow, that has helped me to process these situations and feel more empowered and feel less helpless with what's been happening.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It's tough because I just want to protect you.
But perhaps by wanting to protect you, I wasn't hearing that. It wasn't just that specific, you know, moment and running on that beach, it was the, I guess you're right to just be safe wherever you go in society. And, you know, I'm really sorry because I didn't. I didn't hear. I went to sort of my. My protective mechanism, which is like, you know, you just banned. You banned from the beach and keep you. You do whatever you want. Would it matter if I did actually ban you from doing something? Something that would just make you want to do it more? But that wasn't the point. The point was you needed me to see you and to see and to understand that it was bullshit.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: And to be an ally and support me and advocate for me, you know, go out there and do the work. Don't make me ring them. You ring them or ring them with me or say, babe, when can we set a time? Do you want to do this together? How can I help you?
[00:25:00] Speaker B: Step up.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Step up. Step.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: And I didn't. I didn't. And, you know, I think this is what I was talking about earlier, whether it's.
How can you step up for your partner to make them feel more safe?
If we're seeing all this in society and your partner is feeling unsafe, and I'm saying that they probably likely are, it's hard not to. How can you step up and, you know, by putting yourself in their shoes. As Kim said, she felt unsafe. Just with everything that's going on. Walking around our local lake. I run around there all the time. I've never once felt unsafe. I walk down the street at night. I never. I never feel unsafe ever. You know, I'm not a big bloke. Like, I'm, you know, I'm just a pretty regular guy.
And that's the difference, you know, you, I can say, oh, Kim, you'll be fine. Perth safe, this, that, the other. But Kim doesn't always feel safe walking down the street. And that's just so unfair. And I think, you know, what are we doing as men? What am I doing as a man to make a difference?
[00:26:02] Speaker A: Well, let me talk about why it's potentially helpful to talk to your partner. And first, let me say not everyone wants to discuss these things. For some women, they may prefer not to talk about it. However, there is research that suggests that being able to voice your concerns and find ways to express the values you actually want to see in society and support the people who may have suffered, or maybe relatives of those who have suffered can help people to feel more empowered in what feels like a really helpless situation.
And also talking can help us to understand ourselves while we're having these big feelings. And that's something. It's definitely done for me. It can allow ourselves to take some of the judgment out of it, you know, Christ, am I going crazy? What's going on in my head here? Why am I feeling so down, so heavy? You know, what's wrong with me? Our concerns are real. They're valid, especially in this current environment. And for me, you know, I felt really relieved to be able to discuss these issues with Rog, like I've said, with someone who was safe, with someone who supported me, with someone who was willing to grow and be open and listen to my feedback and not become defensive about it. And I did feel like, sorry. Swear I did feel like, phew, I'm not going crazy. You know, I was worried, and I was right to feel worried. And you know what? I also found hope. In talking to Rog, I found hope because he said, let's do a podcast. It might help other people. And I thought, yeah, let's do that. And that made me feel. Feel a little bit more hopeful that maybe I can help, maybe just, I don't know, one person in a situation that I'm feeling quite helpless in. So how can you create a safe space for men listening to this or women who want to share this with their partner? So that your partner can share with you, acknowledge what's been happening and ask your partner if they wish, if they wish to discuss it at a time that works for them, in a space that works for them. Accept and respect their wishes. Do not demand that they talk to you. That is not how it works. That is further control. We do not want to be controlled in this situation.
We want to be listened to. We want to lead on these things. So invite them, ask them, approach the situation with respect and let them decide whether they want to chat about it. Let them know you're always there for them, an ally and a safe space for them. And if your partner chooses to discuss the issues, listen to them, acknowledge them.
Don't try to solve it. Don't try to problem fix for them. Ask them how you can support them. Everyone is different. They will need different things from you. Ask what they need from you.
Demonstrate a willingness to be there in an ongoing capacity. This isn't a one and done. I'm here for you anytime, every time. There's no such thing as too much.
It's okay. If you're having big feelings for a long time, it's okay. Forever. You can come to me. I am your safe harbour, and let them know they're not alone.
And if you do that for your partner, I promise you it will help them. It will help them in a situation that's really, really hard for women at the moment. And it will help you as a couple. It will bond you, it will build intimacy in your relationship. It will connect you at a very, very deep level. Building safety is everything you want to focus on building safety in your relationship. And you want to do this for your partner.
[00:29:36] Speaker B: Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and feelings today, sweetie. And being super vulnerable with me and with our listeners. It's incredible what you've done today, and I really appreciate it.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: Thanks for listening. Rogue.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: You'Re amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living the team life relationship insights and conversations, head over to kimandroj.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: And if you liked today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy, and it'll make us really happy.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Until next time, keep on living the team life.
