Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <silence>
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Communication. It's one of the most heavily cited issues for people in their relationship. Why? Because as it becomes more difficult, feelings of loneliness and disillusionment can significantly build in the relationship. So how do we counter this? We build our communication skills, and that starts with recognizing what styles of communication are currently contributing to our communication problems. We've brought in the big guns for this skill building podcast and are unpacking Dr. John Gottman's research around the four horsemen of the apocalypse for especially negative communication styles that can be lethal to a relationship. And of course, we are sharing with you how you can start to communicate without these. So with that in mind, let's dig on in to the four communication red flags for your relationship. Hey, we're Kim and Roger, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
Speaker 2 00:00:58 We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should we think about the future as a field of possibilities, and we let joy be our compass.
Speaker 1 00:01:06 We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage, and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
Speaker 2 00:01:15 From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house ripping business, we've achieved some big dreams, and most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever had.
Speaker 1 00:01:23 Pick conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts and tales from our own lives. As we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team. These
Speaker 2 00:01:33 Are relationship conversations for real people buy real people. So sit back, get comfortable, whatever tickles you, pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
Speaker 1 00:01:49 So today we are talking about the four communication red flags that can be really helpful in facilitating people or couples to talk to one another better and have better outcomes. And the background to this podcast is that there is a psychologist out there by the name of, uh, Dr. John Gottman, who is a professor at the University of Washington, I believe, and he's very well known. You might have heard of him. He's a leading researcher, in fact, in relationships. Uh, specifically he's looked a lot at marriages, but broader relationships as well. He's been looking at relationships from a research standpoint for a very long time, and he has become a expert in identifying patterns of behavior and communication in a relationship that can predict either success or failure. So what that means is he's watched couples in a clinical setting. He has a, a lab called the Love Lab. He watches how they engage with one another. And with years and years of watching these couples, he's a been able to work out which behaviors, which communication styles most often predict success or failure in the relationship. So years later, he follows up with these couples, he's able to see did, was he right? And that's how the researchers sort of formulated, which is fascinating.
Speaker 2 00:03:18 That's what I, I think is great about Gottman. Uh, he's really the sort of modern day goat of relationship research. And what I like about it, he does this research over the last 40 years and he even follows couples, uh, over their relationship journey for, for over 20 years. And then he's not just theoretical, he then takes this research that he's done and he puts it into practice and tests it and see if it works. And then, and, and his solutions evolve as well.
Speaker 1 00:03:46 Um, yeah, so he also, he, he runs what you're talking about there as the Gottman Institute. So actually, uh, training couples and training counselors and to deliver what they've discovered in the love lab. So the research that they've found, deliver that in a clinical setting, so to support couples and, uh, support counselors to deliver that to other couples. So it's a very, uh, important part of the relationship industry or relationship counseling or coaching or psychology, um, because his research has been pivotal in understanding, uh, relationships better.
Speaker 2 00:04:22 Yep, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1 00:04:23 So anyway, I talk about Gottman because today we are talking about the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which is a term he coined and it based on his research. And the first thing, which we've mentioned before, is that gottman's research has shown that whether you fight or not does not in any way predict whether your relationship will be successful or not. What actually predicts whether your relationship will be successful or not is how you fight. And there are a number of indicators that Gottman's has established for, uh, success or failure in the way people argue with one another. And in amongst those indicators, Gottman discovered four particularly negative communication styles that could be so lethal to a relationship that he decided to call them the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which is pretty, pretty drastic.
Speaker 2 00:05:18 So while we might be talking about the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which is a bit doomsday, you know, at, at Living the team life, we do really believe in mindset shifts. We're really not that focused on on problems per se, as we are about how to approach things and how to change our mindset with things. And also, especially when it comes to communication, we're always looking to build our toolkit, our relationship toolkit, our communication toolkit. And really what I think is great about the four horsemen of the apocalypse, you know, ignorance isn't bliss when you have information provided to you in a simple and succinct way, it then allows you to recognize certain patterns of behavior in yourself and your partner. And I think that's what's really important today, is that don't just listen to these, uh, you know, as we go through these four horsemen and go, okay, now I'm gonna see if my partner ticks any of these boxes. While that is important, it's also really important to, to reflect on your own, uh, communication style and, and, and do a bit of self-reflection, which is sometimes a lot harder to do than when we're just looking at our, out of our, um, looking at our partners. You know, understanding and recognizing damaging communication styles is part of your toolkit, and what it does allow us to do is to recognize it and to put, uh, steps and strategies in place to communicate better.
Speaker 1 00:06:39 Yeah, a hundred percent right, Roger. And I think what's really important there is, uh, that you highlighted this is about building our toolkit. And like you said, living the team life is about changing your approach. It's actually about teaching people a mindset shift. So we don't often get really bogged down in problems. So, you know, people come to us often and say, I've got this problem in my relationship, or this problem in my relationship showing up all the time. Rah rah. That's, our focus isn't on problems. It's actually a, a higher level, broader mindset shift. What we are focused on, in addition to the mindset shift, is upskilling people to be able to make that mindset shift. And that's what we're talking about today. We are upskilling people with better communication tools because once you communicate better with your partner, once you're having those more positive interactions, even those more positive fights, you are going to be able to make a mindset shift towards living your dream life together. You can't get to that big dream goal of having a more fulfilling life and a more purposeful life if you haven't taken care of some of the basics. And this is one of the basics, which is communicating well, fighting well. So that's what the plan is today, upskill the toolkit.
Speaker 2 00:07:49 Let's look at those four horsemen of the apocalypse, starting with number one, which is criticism. Now, how criticism shows up is, I guess instead of expressing a complaint about something, something I'm not happy about, something, one partner then instead attacks the other person and they specifically attack their personality or, or, or character. And an example would be, okay, you go out to buy yourself a coffee and you come back and you didn't get your partner one. And they might say to you, you never think of anyone else by yourself, as opposed to, Hey, why didn't you get me a coffee?
Speaker 1 00:08:31 So I'm gonna have to be honest here. This is an exact example of one that happens in our household. And I am the guilty party. I get so upset when Roger gets a coffee room himself and not me
Speaker 2 00:08:42 Or, or any drink. Did you make me one? Did you get me a beer?
Speaker 1 00:08:47 I feel forgotten. And I do, I do jump to criticism sometimes and, and make it a personalized response. And it is completely unproductive. I'm not focusing on that specific behavior. I'm focusing on who Roger is as a whole person, which is entirely unfair. And you know, if you look at just the specific behavior, the complaint, which is the, which is the more constructive way to deal with this situation, we would just be talking about exactly what he'd done. Oh, I I, when you went to get yourself a coffee, I would've liked if you had asked me, sent me a message, and asked if I would also like a coffee that would've been how to focus on the complaint. So there's three parts to a complaint, how I feel about what situation and what do I need. And it depersonalizes the, the, uh, response you have to something that you weren't happy about.
Speaker 2 00:09:43 When someone doesn't make a complaint, but they make a criticism in that situation of the person, you feel pretty worthless and maybe even defenseless because you, yeah, you've made a stuff up. It, it would've been nice if I'd got Kim a coffee or got her a drink, but that doesn't mean I'm a selfish person. And, and to cut straight to there and go, Hey, well, you know, you've stuffed up and at, and as a direct result, I believe that you are a selfish person, or you should see yourself as a selfish person. Is is quite an attack. It's quite hurtful. You can feel quite rejected. It, it's just not a great way to have a conversation. It's not a great way to, to be in a relationship.
Speaker 1 00:10:22 Yeah, absolutely. And Gottman talks about the, the concept of harsh and soft startups. So what he says is that, uh, for example, a soft startup, which means you're still starting up with the person. He's not saying don't fight exactly what he said in the beginning. It's not about not fighting, it's about how you fight. You can absolutely start the discussion in a softer manner, or you can start it really harshly. And Gottman says that when you start with a complaint, you, you are starting in a soft manner. When you start with a personalized criticism, you are having a harsh startup. And soft or harsh startups are actually really strong predictors for, uh, the successful outcome of a conversation and even the success of a relationship. So in his research, Gottman found that 96% of the time you can pre predict the outcome of a conversation based on the first three minutes of a 15 minute conversation. And that's just because he looks as to whether the couple have a soft startup or a harsh startup. And you guys know what that's like when you just go in guns a blazing from the get go.
Speaker 2 00:11:30 Yeah, it's not a great first step. Um, you're setting yourself up for failure instead of setting yourself up for success. Because in an argument, you generally do need a resolution. And when you attack the person instead of the problem, of course, what happens then is you know, that person is going to come from the point of view as you attacked me and my person. So how do we resolve that versus, Hey, we've got an issue at hand. Yes, we need to resolve the specific issue, which both of you should be able to come to the table to
Speaker 1 00:11:59 Do. That is such a great point. I really wanna pick up on that. When you attack the person with a criticism, how are they meant to resolve that? Because you are saying them as a person is the problem. How on earth in that moment can they focus on resolving that there is no way to resolve their whole character?
Speaker 2 00:12:19 I, I, I a hundred percent agree, and I think, you know, it's a great segue into the next horseman of the apocalypse. This is, uh, number two, which is contempt. Because often the next step from criticism is contempt. And it involves really starting to tear down and being mean to your partner. You'll often find with contempt, there's a bit of venom behind it. You're really trying to make the other person feel worthless or feel despised. You're actually going after how they feel about themselves and their feelings. And, and some of the ways this shows up is, is being sarcastic, is calling 'em terrible names, mimicking them, snickering, sneering, judgment, and a big one, which I definitely used to do in the first 10 years of our relationship. Are you right? Oh, sorry, is
Speaker 1 00:13:08 That <laugh>? I thought you said you used to do it.
Speaker 2 00:13:10 Oh, I used to do. Oh, no. So which I, I look, I think I actually do want, that's a great point, sweetie. We'll talk about this more at the end. But yeah, Kim and I still do some of these things absolutely today, but we know how to rectify it. And because we're aligned in other parts of our lives, you know, these are I guess, blips on the radar versus to wholesale problems. Yes. So the last one before I was very correctly cut off <laugh>, <laugh> was eye rolling, mass
Speaker 1 00:13:36 Repaired,
Speaker 2 00:13:37 And, and I I'm definitely an eye roller. I know sometimes out of my eye rolling Kim can feel like I'm dismissing her or she can feel like I think she's an idiot, which is, oh yes, when I say it, it just makes me feel so gross that I would ever make the person I love feel that way.
Speaker 1 00:13:51 Yeah. I think contempt, uh, is certainly about one partner feeling superior to the other. I know better than you. I'm smarter than you. I am better than you. And, and it's what, how it comes out, uh, is, is it actually at a really, really dark level of, of almost a sense of disgust. And if we think about what that's experience is like for the person who's being treated with contempt, there's very little motivation to engage or continue to engage with someone who seems disgusted in you. It's not your your, we are not wired to want to engage in that way because we feel so offended and so hurt by that. And so unseen and invisible and all of those really sad, deep, painful feelings. And so when we get that sense that someone is being contemptuous, that they're showing us contempt, often the the discussion will not proceed much past that because we're not motivated to continue engaging in that space.
Speaker 2 00:14:54 You can understand when someone explains it to you like this, how the person who is on the end of the contempt will start to feel worthless. They'll start to feel shame, they'll start to feel isolated from the recipient. That adversarial nature, that adversarial mindset will creep, creep, creep into the relationship. 'cause they're being treated with disdain in all honesty. And they're gonna start to feel unloved. And it's sometimes easy to see how we can get from criticism to contempt in a long-term relationship where issues aren't being resolved. And those long held problems that have been bubbling away, those negative thoughts have start to breed resentment. And I think one of the most dangerous things in a relationship can be resentment.
Speaker 1 00:15:42 Yeah. I think, uh, once that resentment shows up, what comes in the contempt space is one partner really wants to start to teach the other partner a lesson. Oh, yeah. So they feel resentful and they think it's their role as the superior individual to teach this person a lesson. So they become focused on schooling that person, essentially on who they are as a person, rather than resolving the current conflict at hand. Uh, which can be, which can be really dangerous space to be in. The other thing I wanna mention about contempt is, uh, the idea of belligerence, which Gottman talks about in the contempt space. And he says, you know, belligerence is, is a close, he calls it a close cousin to contempt. And I think it's a really important one to bring up because it, it can be a bit sneaky as a lot of these are, it sounds like this, well, what are you gonna do about it? Now that might sound pretty innocuous on, on face value when someone says, well, what are you gonna do about it? But it's actually very, it, it is actually a, a huge statement of contempt or, uh, the cousin to contempt, I guess if you, if you will, because you feel so superior to that person. You don't even have to engage them. What are you gonna do about it? And it's very detrimental in a conversation.
Speaker 2 00:17:01 Well, it's like you're putting them below you. Yes. And you can see how you could get there after a while after maybe yourself being dismissed or treated with contempt or criticized in the past. You can definitely see how you might get there. So let's go onto the third horseman of the apocalypse, which is defensiveness. And you know, this is a bit of a tricky one because how it often shows up is the person plays the victim as opposed to being the victim. The big differences here is the person isn't taking accountability or responsibility for their actions. And yes, it is usually in a response to some criticism, but an example I think would be is, you know, you say, I did a but only because you always do B. Yes. And that's, that's the sort of defensiveness we're talking about. And the conversation itself then becomes more about deflecting blame and playing the blame game than actually resolving the issue.
Speaker 1 00:18:00 I think defensiveness is the most complex of the four horsemen because people often feel quite righteous in their defensiveness. They feel like they've been wronged, they've been criticized, they've been hurt by the comment of the other. And so they need to righteously defend themselves. And especially people who have grown up in a household where they might have been defending themselves a lot as children. Yeah, it can be very triggering to have someone say things. And so you go into a defensive mode, what we really need to hold here is how unconstructive that space is. And it can be really hard. And I think people in the defensive space, and I've certainly sat in this space and I think women as well, it's another gendered issue as well because, because women have struggled a lot more to get recognition, uh, and to be treated equally. I've certainly experienced that at home and in the workplace, and we can become very defensive trying to stand up for ourselves. That's the sort of like feeling that you get in yourself, but it's not a constructive space to be in. So it's a really sneaky one and you have to really watch yourself to see when it's showing up.
Speaker 2 00:19:08 Yeah. And, and what we like to say on living the team life is that two things can be true, which I think is a really important thing to understand. Society is like, yeah, you might being criticized or you might be be treated with contempt, but at the same time that doesn't mean you're not being dis defensive. Yes. You're not being, you're not taking accountability of your actions, as in two parties can be to blame. You go, well, I had to be defensive because they already always do this. Well, yes, it's true that they're doing that, but you can choose how you react in the situation.
Speaker 1 00:19:37 I just jump on that 'cause you're a hundred percent right. And Gottman actually talks about how, uh, or talks about the interplay between the three. So often you get the criticism and the contempt and then the defensiveness, and then that spurs on further criticism and they go, they teeter back and forth to one another. And they do, they continue the cycle in the conversation. So it's not, it's not a linear progression, it's the Yes, Roger. You're exactly right. Both can be happening in the conversation. And what you need to do is both be taking responsibility for what you are bringing up in your communication style, the way you are handling it. So if you are being defensive or you are being, there's no justification. That's where the one thing we have to hold with defensiveness, even if your partner is being, uh, critical, you being defensive is not going to help that. And I think that's a very hard thing. I wanna acknowledge that for a lot of people, especially women, uh, to accept when they felt like they've had to defend themselves a lot through life. So that's why I say it's sneaky and complex because it's gonna take a lot of awareness to notice when it's there.
Speaker 2 00:20:42 And I think, you know, when we are faced with a defensive partner, we, we can really start to feel frustrated, unheard dismissed, and because nothing's getting resolved and nothing's really being achieved, we can start to feel stuck and like we're not moving forward, which again, is really dangerous for the relationship. So the fourth horseman of the apocalypse is stonewalling. Now, I'll make a generalization here, but actually Gottman does back this up and he says that this is more of, uh, more of something that blokes do. And I can 100% say that I do it less. Now, I probably still do it a bit, but stonewalling was my number one horseman. Like, you know, I could've gone on one of those prancing shows on the stonewalling horse, the, what's it called?
Speaker 1 00:21:33 I have no idea what you're talking about,
Speaker 2 00:21:35 <laugh>? Yeah. At at the Olympics where they wear the, called the dressage or something. The dressage, yeah. So pretty much I would've been at the dressage stonewalling horseman Olympics. So with the pretty ribbons in, uh, the horseman's hair and all that sort of stuff, uh, because I would often just be like, I'm too tired to have this conversation. I I've just got home from work, babe, why don't you give me a break? What, what I was continually doing when Kim wanted to address something with me is that I was withdrawing, shutting down, closing myself off and really walking away from the discussion and the issue.
Speaker 1 00:22:10 Yeah. This is one that really often shows up after the other three have come about because, and, and in a repetitive way as well. So you get faster at stonewalling, you know, it comes in earlier in the conversation as you move on and you see more and more of the c criticism and the contempt and the defensiveness, and eventually the stonewalling just comes in earlier and earlier because the conversation is unproductive and it's, it's not an enjoyable space. And whichever partner stonewalls one or maybe both even decides, I don't wanna engage in that anymore. I can't be bothered with that anymore. And it's a really painful one for the person who's being stonewalled because you are left feeling very unseen. You, there's no acknowledgement for the fact that you are still standing there making the effort. It's, it is, it might seem like it's not a big deal when someone checks out of a conversation, but it can be very detrimental and very painful to the partner that's been left hanging in the conversation.
Speaker 2 00:23:08 You're just not dealing with it, are you? Mm-hmm. You are, you are walking away so you don't have to deal with it. And of course that will just leave your partner feeling abandoned, frustrated, and undervalued. They'll be like, I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Yes. You know, I feel like we never communicate. I feel like we never talk. It's well, well you don't. And what happens is that if you're not having those important conversations, if you're not resolving issues, if you are constantly walking away and what happens, it becomes a habit. And that that little divide between you can over time become a chasm.
Speaker 1 00:23:43 I think absolutely. The, the divide grows. But also, I mean, people talk about apathy as the great killer in a relationship, and I couldn't agree more. You continue to stonewall your partner one day, they're gonna say, you know what? I'm not gonna bother with this anymore. They are simply not listening to me. They're not engaging, they're not trying with me. Why am I trying?
Speaker 2 00:24:04 Yeah. And I can look, I can understand, well Kim and I can understand how this happens. So I'll take you back in time, you know, to the first 10 years of our relationship where Kim might have come up with a harsh startup with some criticism because I hadn't done something, but she attacked my character. And as a result, because I was didn't know how to manage the situation, I was maybe overwhelmed with the feelings or I felt I was being attacked. And probably more so is that I just didn't want to take accountability for what I had done. I would just walk away. That just built up resentment in Kim for me. I, I would feel like I, I'd get defensive and be like, well I had to walk away 'cause I was attacked. So you can see how these things interlock and interplay with each other and you just end up in a really awful repetitive circle. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:24:54 Absolutely. So with that in mind, let's talk a little bit about the ways we can counter these, these four horsemen. So I don't like to use the word avoid because we're not trying to avoid anything in life. The more we bring awareness to the fact that these exist, the more potential we have to change them. So don't expect, like Roger said, they, these still show up for us. Definitely not as much as they used to, but they certainly still show up. Uh, we are just better at recognizing them and we are much, much better at countering them when they do show up. Yeah. So giving them less power.
Speaker 2 00:25:29 Yeah. And I feel you've already taken the first step by recognizing what these four
Speaker 1 00:25:33 Are,
Speaker 2 00:25:34 But yeah, Kim, take it away.
Speaker 1 00:25:36 So, uh, the first, the first one we talked about was criticism. So what's the counter to having that harsh startup of criticism? It's having that soft startup of the complaint. So like we said in the beginning, if you start with the complaint and you make the, make sure that you complaint has the three components, how I feel about a specific situation and what I need, you stay in the present complaint and you don't move out to personalizing, globalizing, making it a bigger issue or a personal issue about the character of your partner.
Speaker 2 00:26:12 You're a team remember, you know, make it about us, make it about we, you know, not about you.
Speaker 1 00:26:18 Yes. And you can help that by using things like I statements. I mean these are, these are really simple but really effective ways of engaging in a soft startup that is complaint based and not criticism based. So the next one we talked about was contempt. And the counter, or the antidote to contempt is actually about breeding a different culture in the relationship. And I absolutely love this one 'cause this is definitely one we've developed and I think that's significantly reduced the presence of contempt in our relationship. We have built this culture of appreciation for one another. We are so grateful for what the other person does that even when contempt starts to bubble up the brain, our brains go towards thinking about all the things that other person does for us. We are so ingrained in that, in that mindset of appreciation we value and we thank one another. You know, these skills have to be practiced over and over again. If you wanna get into a mindset of appreciation, thank your partner regularly. Say it out loud. I'm so grateful you did that for me this morning. I'm so grateful you took one for the team yesterday, did bedtime for the fifth time in a row because I'm having a really, really rough week. It made a big difference. You, your mind gets trained at being grateful rather than focusing on the things your partner isn't doing and you building that resentment and contempt.
Speaker 2 00:27:40 You've heard us talk a lot about banking, your little love interactions. And this is case in point again, that say your pleasers, say your thank yous, give your hugs, kisses at the door and show your appreciation. And what happens is you've then built up a massive bank of credit of how that person sees you and how you see each other. So when you do fall into those, oh, why is she doing it? Why is he doing that? The underlying thought is, yeah, but they're on my team and I love them and I appreciate what they're do for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:13 It's not just about having the credit, is it, it actually changes your mindset around it so you see the situation differently. Yeah. That's the joy of it. Okay. Third, we talked about defensiveness. Again, I acknowledge this is a complex one and it can be very difficult for people, but taking responsibility for your part in the conflict. And really one of the parts of this that I think, uh, can be very helpful is being empathic to your partner, acknowledging that it, it is okay for your partner to have a complaint about something that's perfectly normal. We don't always agree. We don't always do everything right. And being curious about what it is that they're complaining about, what has upset them, because you love this person. You don't want them to feel like something hurt them. So staying open to that and trying to move away from being defensive, sitting in the responsibility standpoint and taking responsibility for your part of the situation, no matter what startup comes up.
Speaker 2 00:29:10 One of the most important lessons I ever learned during my, my career at at work was to take more accountability for when you do something wrong and less accountability for when you do something right? Because it builds up trust and it builds respect. So bringing that into the relationship around defensiveness is take accountability for what you can control and what you have done. Even if you're being attacked, even if you're being shown contempt, yeah, it's not right, but two things can be true and you can control how you act. Oh, I
Speaker 1 00:29:43 Love that. That's so good. And the fourth one, stonewalling. This is, this is a, um, a really simple solution for this one. It's practicing taking breaks when you are, when you are in the heated discussion because stonewalling has often come after you've had, as we said, the other three horsemen show up in one way or another. And so that means the discussion's already not going well. If you wanna avoid getting to stonewalling, you can take agreed breaks. And that's part of this is really important. You must verbalize that you wanna take a break. If you just walk away to take a break, you are stonewalling. But if you say to your partner, I really need a break right now, I'm struggling in this conversation, can we come back in 15 minutes, sit outside away from the children and have this conversation properly together? I love you. It's so much more productive. And that's a skill that we've really developed as well. And we will often say, when things get overheated, do you know what this is unproductive right now. I'm gonna step out for 10 minutes, I'm gonna get some air. Can you meet me on the veranda in 10 minutes and we'll continue the conversation. I love you.
Speaker 2 00:30:48 Yeah, I, I love that. And blokes show up. It is hard. You're gotta have to get comfortable being uncomfortable in these conversations. And if it gets too hard, show up and then book in another time, in 15 minutes later that afternoon, show to your partner that if you do need that break that you will show up again later.
Speaker 1 00:31:10 All right, Roger, what was your gold nugget from today?
Speaker 2 00:31:12 I, I cheat a bit with this stuff because I guess the big thing I always, uh, the golden nugget I like to take out of some of these things, which might seem a little bit, um, doomsday negative, is that Kim and I saw all four of these horsemen in the first 10 years of our relationship quite a lot then in the following 10 years of our relationship. Yes, they still show up every now and then, but we've come up with ways to, I guess, counter them. We've changed our mindset about how we feel about our relationship and each other. And so when they do show up, which doesn't happen very often, we know how to manage them. So there's definitely a way forward and sometimes just recognizing them is the best first step.
Speaker 1 00:31:56 I love that. For me, it was really, uh, today about remembering was really interesting doing the research for today as well. That this skill is something you have to practice. And despite the fact that we've been aware of the horseman for over a decade, we have worked on ourselves and our communication styles around this information and, and, and building this skill, we are still working on it. And I think we will continue to work on this for the rest of our days. So just not feeling ashamed if these still show up. It's normal for you not to be perfect in your relationship. It's how you go from that space, you know. And I was thinking this morning as we were talking about this, I was thinking, I, I am gonna pay more attention to A, B and C as I go forward. 'cause I think I've been slipping a little in that space and I'm just gonna really start to notice as much as possible. So yeah, just knowing that it's a skill, skills require practice. It's nothing to be ashamed of, to continue to learn skills, to continue to practice skills. And eventually you will get better and better at this.
Speaker 2 00:33:02 You are amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
Speaker 1 00:33:06 Feel out you're on a roll. If you want more living, the team life, relationship, insights and conversations, head over to Kim and roger.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship goodies.
Speaker 2 00:33:16 And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and it'll make us really happy.
Speaker 1 00:33:25 Until next time, keep on living the team life.
