Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Trigger warning. The issues we are discussing today regarding body image can evoke strong emotional and psychological responses. They land differently with each individual, and it is always important that we check in with ourselves before we receive information as to whether we are mentally in a place to manage the processing of that information. It is an act of self-compassion to know when not to listen to something. Please take a moment to do this. Check-in now to decide what is right for you. And if listening to the show today brings up any issues for you, help is always available at Lifeline on 13 1 11 4, or through the Butterfly Foundation, who specialize in support for eating disorders and body image issues on 1 803 3, 4, 6, 7 3. Body image in relationships Part two,
Speaker 0 00:00:44 Today we're digging into the hard stuff, body image. It affects a lot of us. In fact, one in two Aussies, rarely or never speak positively about their bodies. And it affects us in more ways than you might realize. It can especially affect our relationships, the way we feel about ourselves, the way we feel about our partners, the way we connect with our partners, and the way we are intimate together. Our Australian of the Year for 2023, Taran Brum FITT was chosen as a leader in the body image movement. The time has clearly come culturally for us to open up and discuss the real impact of negative body image and how we can find a more positive path
Speaker 1 00:01:22 Forward.
Speaker 0 00:01:28 Hey, we're Kim and Rod, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life
Speaker 2 00:01:35 Together. We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should we think about the future as a field of possibilities, and we'll let joy our compass.
Speaker 0 00:01:43 We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage, and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it
Speaker 2 00:01:53 Together. From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house stripping business, we've achieved some big dreams, and most importantly, we feel fulfilled in, are having the most fun we've ever had.
Speaker 0 00:02:01 Hey, conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts and tales from our own lives. As we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team. These
Speaker 2 00:02:11 Are relationship conversations for real people, by real people. So sit back, get comfort from whatever tickles you pickle and enjoy living the team. Life
Speaker 0 00:02:27 Research shows it's harder for men to, uh, talk about their emotions and what's happening for them. This isn't necessarily, hasn't got a big spotlight on it. So I'd be really grateful if you could share some of, some insight into the, the male, uh, experience of body image personally and more generally.
Speaker 2 00:02:44 So I'll, I'll talk about myself, but I'll just, um, preface it with a bit of a, you know, the funny thing about male body image is it doesn't seem to impact as many men as women, but it is impacting a lot more than we probably think. And I think part of the issues, which is a, it's a bit of a weird one, is that one of the reasons men don't talk about body images, because for them it's seemed like a female problem. And so as a result, by admitting you have a body issue, you are admitting you are less masculine, which in turn makes you feel less masculine, which in turn makes you judge your body more. Um, so that was something I read and it just pinged with me. And that makes a hundred percent sense. I think what the body image for males looked like back in the eighties. And I'll, I'll go, I'll sort of more Australia, you know, maybe with the, some of the cricketers and footy players, they weren't massive and ripped. Um, they were more lany. They were a bit bronzed, good mustache <laugh>. Um, but they, they were sinking tinies at halftime or at lunch at the cricket, you know, and these days it's very,
Speaker 0 00:03:49 Oh my God, I heard titties, not tinies, tinies,
Speaker 2 00:03:52 <laugh> <laugh>. I'll have to go back and listen to that, uh, Freudian slip. And then, um, I think, you know, if you look today what social media, which has definitely impacted women, but it's also really brought to the front, uh, what's impacting young adolescent men who are looking for, for something. Cuz men feel very much the same, same way. And I think back in the day, it seemed to be male pattern baldness was one of the only things, or penis size used to be the only thing that was really an, uh, an issue between men, maybe height. Um, and this has become more of a problem now through, uh, Tinder and other dating apps as
Speaker 0 00:04:27 Well. How, how does that play out?
Speaker 2 00:04:28 What, sorry,
Speaker 0 00:04:29 What? Because people have to write down their height or what does, how does that show up?
Speaker 2 00:04:33 We never, we've never done Tinder. Tinder. Oh no, we did, we we missed the, the Tinder page. Thank God. They, so what happens is because they actually had a, a bit of a, you know, a Tinder hatto graph of the, the Heights men would put down. And there seemed to be a dip at like 6 10, 6 11 down, and then a spike at, um, six foot when there should be more of a even curved distribution because people who were 5, 9, 10, 11 men mm-hmm. <affirmative> would put in six foot, right. Because Uhhuh <affirmative> women, women on a lot of their pro, uh, their profiles, uh, for who they'd want to look for. I dunno if Tinder works like this, but I think some of the other ones, you know, you can actually put in No, I I want no one under six foot. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:05:15 You can specify a height minimum.
Speaker 2 00:05:17 Yeah. And of course, um, one of the main things for women, uh, on Tinder is they must be six foot. Now what? Yeah. And then of course now there's some of these things about, uh, six, six figures in terms of salary and six inches in turn terms of your willy, um, and Jesus
Speaker 0 00:05:35 Girls.
Speaker 2 00:05:35 Yeah. And, and that there's only a small percentage of the population that actually applies to. So, um, there, there are, there's some, there is some sort of,
Speaker 0 00:05:42 I'm confused though. Like, what are you hoping to get out of a partner if you are telling them they have to meet a really superficial criteria for you to like them, they're gonna give that straight back to, to you.
Speaker 2 00:05:57 Oh, a hundred percent. And maybe look, maybe, or maybe if you are more just into hookups, that's all right. But if you're looking for a relationship, whether how much they make, uh, their height and the size of their, their dong, I'm sorry, I'm doing, I'm always doing this on purpose using different <laugh>, um, different things for, for penises, uh, is that they, none of these have any, any correlation to a successful and happy relationship. And so you're, you're, you're choosing for the wrong factors.
Speaker 0 00:06:26 You're also like, you're sending all the wrong signals out. Right? Like these are the things that are important to me. Yeah. It's, that's just
Speaker 2 00:06:32 Crazy. So, so young men these days, it's more about muscle dis dysmorphia. And that's a lot to do with, you know, before we'll talk about the media in a bit, but before, you know, you might have ar Schwarzenegger Stallone up there, they were the, they were just massive. Or you'd have elite athletes, right?
Speaker 0 00:06:48 I always felt like they would crush you
Speaker 2 00:06:50 <laugh>. Yeah. But they're, they're scared me. They're, you know, they're supposed to be, you know, the top, the elite. So it seemed it used to same out of reach, you know, um, you know, Hemsworth, Chris Hemp plays a superhero soda and, and, and the rock, you know, but that, I mean, even to get that big, they are on steroids. But the fact is that just on social media these days, and, you know, most movie characters, they do have, the young men do have six packs, and they are bulk and built, and a young lot of, a lot of young men are suffering, wanting to be skinny and mu. So, uh, look, that, that's just something that's impacting society a bit more today. And I think it was important to talk about it from the man's point of view. Um, although of course I don't want to, just because I talk about it from a man's point of view, doesn't mean at any, at any stage, I'm trying to lessen the fact that how much this impacts women, how long women have been dealing with this mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I think men have, as I said, male patent, baldness, baldness, and maybe height has, al has always been something that society's, you know, has probably impacted men. But if you actually, uh, look back, women have been copying this for probably thousands, thousands of years now.
Speaker 0 00:07:55 A hundred percent. I'll talk about some of that now because you've just sort of segued nicely into it. Uh, and then maybe, or do you wanna talk about your own experience first? Or do you want me to, can I jump
Speaker 2 00:08:04 In on that? No, jump in. Okay. Go for it. That's what we do.
Speaker 0 00:08:06 Just, just because I think you, you've, you've sort of thrown over to the female side. You're right. We, we each have our own experiences in terms of the gender. Um, and it's really important to understand both sides because as this is an emerging issue in, in males as well, again, that opportunity in relationships to build connection and build trust and safety and the couple bubble and all those things through, uh, positive body image and, and supportive behaviors is, is more and more relevant on both sides, right? Not just for the female, but for the male as well. And also I find that really interesting, like some of the stuff you're talking about, I don't understand that side of things. So that's a really interesting thing to sort of get your head around that some of these issues, like the muscle dysmorphia that you spoke about, I had not heard of that. When you say it, it makes a lot of sense because I do see on social media, you know, that this is the sort of thing people are posting, and you're right, people like the Hemsworth brothers who are very muscular and, and build to be muscular for certain roles and things like that. If
Speaker 2 00:09:17 You look at Chris Hemsworth just in his day-to-day life versus when he is thaw Yes. It's completely different. Yes. But then of course on social media, you're seeing people every day, you people posting every day. Yes. And so you get this idea of that is what it's like to be masculine. Yes. And of course, as a teenager, you don't really have much control over your body. You can go to the gym a lot and maybe control it that way, but you've generally got other stuff going on in your life as well. And just like you talked about when you were young and it was really about what boys thought of you, what you thought boys thought of, you guys are exactly the same thing. You can get so much, so much of guys's self worth is taken up with whether I have a girlfriend or whether girls like me. And that we can see when some dark places on the internet with that how, um, you know, some men, like Andrew TAs and staff are becoming so popular. Um, who's he? Sorry. So he's a ex, uh, kickboxer who really, I think he's in Jacqueline at the moment, but, uh, he went big online, uh, really talking about sort of being sexist and women are nothing. And
Speaker 0 00:10:20 Oh, he promotes that
Speaker 2 00:10:21 Behavior. And, and, and millions of young men were, um, uh, you know, signing up to his account, subscribing and following him because that they, they see this guy who drives a Lamborghini has big muscles Oh, has tats. Yeah. Oh, no. You know, and with we've, you know, with the, um, with the hindsight and maturity of 40 years, I sit there and go, oh, gross. Right? But as a young male, I could so see how you could want to be that Lamborghini's money. Good rig chicks like sign, sign me up.
Speaker 0 00:10:53 This is such a good, because we were about to jump into the wi the, the sort of the female experience, um, more broadly. And this is such a good segue into that because that actually, as you talk about that, man, it made me feel sick in my tummy. And whenever I get that sick feeling, I know there's like gut stuff going on, like real deep historical stuff. And historically, women have been so horrendously objectified forever. We have always been oppressed by males. And I know that I'm gonna get some interesting comments on this from people thinking I'm a a, a ranting feminist, but this is just fact. I mean, we, we know that sexism has
Speaker 2 00:11:35 Yeah, cut, cut. Like in all artists, guys put, pull off the blindfold whim, copped a pretty hard <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:11:39 Thank you. We have copped it really, really hard. And that's why when you talk about people like that, who display all of those characteristics of that oppressive historical behavior, it, it is in my, like, you know, when they say to children and they teach protective behaviors, they say, if it feels wrong in the gut, you know something's wrong. It feels wrong In my gut, when you describe that, man, it feels like I feel sick inside myself because I know what those sort of people are like. And it's something that women have been dealing with for such a long time. It's, it's like ingrained in ourselves when a man is sexist, obsessive with, uh, looks oppressive towards a woman controlling all of those things. It makes me feel really sick. And from a body image perspective, that's, that's a hundred percent what we have historically experienced, which is this just this gross objectification.
Speaker 0 00:12:35 And it's one of the reasons we have such an issue with body image and the, um, prevalence is so much higher for women because historically men have been given this right to comment on a woman's body to objectify her. And it just absolutely sickens me when I think about it. It's so recent. Even when I worked in, in the mid two thousands and I started working in an office job, I had meant comment on seeing my g-string through my work pants, laughing behind me, senior executives saying these things. It's just rank when I think about it and I look back on it. But that's one of the reasons women are always thinking about not just, do I look fat or do I look skinny, but am I hiding enough of myself so that people won't think I'm incapable?
Speaker 2 00:13:25 I I don't know how you do it. Like, do I hide myself or do I put myself out there? Oh,
Speaker 0 00:13:29 Because you never know.
Speaker 2 00:13:30 As, as much as I don't want to be judged, I know I am being judged, and so I need to, I need to play the game because I can't really change the game.
Speaker 0 00:13:41 I was terrified when I started work that what I wore would tell people whether I was worthy of having a serious conversation with or not. Because that's how objectified women are. I mean, where I worked when I started, women weren't allowed to wear singlets with spaghetti straps. Now, that's very specific. Why were women not allowed to wear singlets with spaghetti straps was because it was too revealing. God forbid we revealed something and the man couldn't control himself and looked at it. It just, the whole, the whole, anyway, I, I mean, I'm getting into
Speaker 2 00:14:17 This. So if, you know, society's judging you and Oh yeah. Individual men are judging you based on your looks, how could that not seep in to how you see yourself actually see yourself and how you value
Speaker 0 00:14:28 Yourself? A hundred percent. And then on top of that, like, I'm not saying, you know, historically the role of, uh, the societal norms around how men have been allowed to judge women comment on women, the, all of the, obviously the sexual abuse and all of that stuff that women endured at far, far higher rates than men, you know, all points to how damaging this was and why it's left women, exactly like you said, with, uh, more concerns around their body image. And then that's been exacerbated in across recent history. And, and you know, I'm talking e even into f further history, but exacerbated also by the fact that the media figured out it could make a lot of money off trading on those concerns. And so it would put women out there who looked a certain way, the way that men wanted them to look, I'm speaking in general norms here. And then all of the rest of us would look at these images and buy things that the media would sell to us to try and look like
Speaker 2 00:15:37 That. Yeah. When, when we say media, we're generally, I guess it's about sort of what we, back in the day, what used to see in TV and magazines and and movies and what you see in, um, on, on online now. But it's, yeah, it's also like advertising, advertising companies, right? Ad
Speaker 0 00:15:52 No, it's
Speaker 2 00:15:53 All advertising advertis. When you absolutely advertise, you're not selling something for what it does. You're selling something for how it makes you feel or how it makes you look to other people understand. Yeah. Um, and, and that, that's like what, that's
Speaker 0 00:16:04 Marketing feel to you, right? Like how you look to someone else is building your sense of like, how you feel about
Speaker 2 00:16:10 It. And that, that's how you can see how women have the, i how their own body, body image has been impacted over the years. Because you can see how the media advertising agents and, and the media have portrayed that and, um, over the years, cause it's changed, right? You know, your CJ off Baywatch or your, um, you know, Christina Aguilera or your Victoria Secret models, um, or you are the Kardashians and you can see how things have changed over time. And
Speaker 0 00:16:38 You're seeing, you mean body shapes have changed.
Speaker 2 00:16:41 Not,
Speaker 0 00:16:41 Not the, not the idea that if you promote a certain shape and look that women will aspire to it because historical, what's hot right now, racism and the, and the cultural norms have caused women to be, to attach worth to, yeah. Image. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:55 Yeah. So, so what ha what is seen as the perfect or the popular body image has changed over the years, but not the core of it, which is saying that women believe, ugh, this is so dangerous for me. I'm so sorry. Um, <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:17:12 Step on the Coles, Roger.
Speaker 2 00:17:14 Yeah, no, please correct me. Like so please correct me. But, but <laugh>. But you know, if, if women have a lot of self-worth tied up in how they are perceived by other people, men and women, then they're gonna gravitate towards what's hot, what's on trend, what's the, what's the norm,
Speaker 0 00:17:30 Spend the money on it,
Speaker 2 00:17:31 Spend the money, advertisers and all of the dollars mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:17:35 <affirmative>. Yep, yep,
Speaker 2 00:17:36 Yep. Yeah. So I've, I got that bang on. Did I <laugh>?
Speaker 0 00:17:39 Absolutely. It's, it's a massive issue and it's one of the reasons, you know, we are just unpacking a little bit more of, of the female side of things and you know, how that shows up in a relationship. Just, just moving onto that a little bit. So we've had all these cultural expectations, these societal norms, this historical sexism, these advertising, oh, what do you call them? These soulless advertisers feeding into this issue for so long for women. I mean, I think back to like, just, again, I'm gonna jump to the side on this, but I think back to the, you know, the 1950s good housewife <laugh> magazines that you could buy and things like that. It's, so it's been there for a very, very long time. These, these issues. So talking about how this shows up in, in a relationship, you know, it's that stuff we talked about at the start.
Speaker 0 00:18:28 It's not just about the self-judgment. So it shows up with women who have self-judgment issues and, and what we call body image issues. They become an issue between the partnership. One of the stats I've got is that one in two people, this is a body image stat for Australia. One in two people don't do things they enjoy because of how they feel about their appearance. Now if, if you are not feeling good about your appearance and we know that that's far more pervasive in the female population and you are not engaging in the relationship as a result, that's going to impact the ability for you and your partner to bond and connect. If you are not showing up to events or not wanting to go to uh, uh, I don't know, something that's gonna require you to wear tight clothing cuz you're worried about how you're gonna look or whatever it is, right?
Speaker 0 00:19:19 That is going to impact your relationship. Another part of this is, so that's the, you know, the, the self-judgment. And I'm saying all this is, if I'm saying this, sorry, at a, I wanna put a, put a wrapper around this of compassion, of deep, deep empathy for women and men suffering with this self-judgment. Because not only do they impact the relationship when you're suffering like this, which I've experienced myself it, and not only does that cause a disconnectedness, you then shame spiral because you know, you're impacting the relationship. So then you add a layer like we all do of judgment because you feel like you're failing in that it's really, really hard space.
Speaker 2 00:20:02 I know that, um, you know, I know that, that that sort of, uh, I wanna talk about that one. And two people don't do things they enjoy Mm. Because of how they feel about the parents. Cause I, that's something that's impacted me in the past. So, you know, I talking about this, I said to you, I go, I really wanted to make sure we went through your perspective of the female perspective first because I feel there's more of an impact out there. But also recognizing this is a growing issue of men and it is impacting young men and, and old men. Um, and, you know, middle-aged men, perhaps like myself and my pre-meal aged maybe, um, <laugh>, no comment. I, you know, I, I've never had a, I never had a great rig, uh, even through as a teen I've always still, you know, been able to run and swim and do all my physical activities.
Speaker 2 00:20:49 But definitely as I got older my body changed. And because generally pretty much since the second or third year of my of work, so for a then a decade after that I was traveling for work and you can almost correlate directly from the months I spent over east living out of hotels. Uh, the weight I put on generally like three, four kilograms at a time mm-hmm. <affirmative> and up until perhaps the last few years where I was overweight. And it impacted, uh, how it's something that weight has ne weight and body image has never super impacted me. As in, it doesn't affect my day to day. But every now and then it does. And I felt that definitely a few, a couple of years ago when, you know, I wasn't, you know, you and I are running our own business. We were very happy. We've got some struggles with, you know, the challenges our daughter has.
Speaker 2 00:21:40 And so there was a lot of stress there. But definitely going out, you know, my friends are generally a big release for me. Um, you know, I love spending time with my mates. We've got real, it's great cause they are no judgment group of guys, but I would not want to go out to some parties or go out to them or maybe not go to the beach or something like that. Because, because I wasn't happy with my body and I wasn't happy about how the clothes looked and I refused to buy clothes. And so yes, you did go through a phase of, I go through about like five years
Speaker 0 00:22:09 When I just, which was difficult because
Speaker 2 00:22:10 I didn't fit into the clothes I had, but then I didn't wanna buy clothes. I'd say I don't wanna buy clothes until I fit into them.
Speaker 0 00:22:16 That's such a thing. People experienced such a tough one, isn't it? When you it was the same for me. And, sorry, I'm not trying to take away from you, but when we had our daughter and I didn't bounce back, I didn't fit into my old clothes, but I refused
Speaker 2 00:22:28 To, you refused to let
Speaker 0 00:22:29 Go of them <laugh>. And I kept the old ones. And so you just wear the same one outfit
Speaker 2 00:22:34 <laugh>. Yeah. And I'm over and over. I'm generally like, I'm not too big into fascia or thing like that. Uh, but yeah, I just found that I was never really comfortable in myself. I wasn't comfortable in my clothes and that did and start to impact my mood and start to impact my confidence. And I think, so I went from, and it's a funny thing cuz also I used to say to you, you know, I used to say to you, I go, oh, I don't think I'm that big. And then, cause I didn't feel big, but then I look at myself in a photo and I see a double chin, you know, I might see a bit of a man breast. I'd just go, is that me? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's so funny that sort of disconnect cause I'm a pretty confident person, so maybe that was it.
Speaker 2 00:23:14 But it did after, when, when I was feeling a bit less confident about myself, it did really impact the way I, I think it probably impacted the way I went about things in life. So I went about things in life with less confidence. I I know it impacted the way I I treated you. So again, even though we've been in a really good place, especially the last few years, I probably, you know, I'd badge you for sex and, and then I'd go, oh, it's because, you know, I'm overweight. She doesn't want to have sex for me. But I think the truth was that I was putting out some really awful vibes and I was putting out low confidence and I wasn't putting in the effort. And so if you wanna be intimate with partner, you gotta make them safe and make them, you know, show them some actual love and compassion. And I just wasn't
Speaker 0 00:23:58 That is crazy. And I wasn't, you know
Speaker 2 00:23:59 That. Now I do. Yeah, of course. At the time you're, you're in thick and you know, it's very hard to, introspection is very hard in the middle of it. Introspection sometimes comes a lot easier once you're, once you're through it. And you know, it's funny because for years and years I was not dangerously overweight at all, but I was starting to get unhealthy as I was getting older. And again, I could still run six k I could still go for a two K swim note. No,
Speaker 0 00:24:23 You weren't.
Speaker 2 00:24:24 I wasn't unfit, but I was, I was starting to get, I was overweight and I was, I, I felt when I was sick, I was getting sicker for longer and it was impacting me. And I, and I know I'm gonna sit here going, I want to get down to a six pack or anything like that. I'm not interested in that. I did want to get healthy, but it's something that you used to do, maybe was used to try the, the, the stick approach.
Speaker 0 00:24:44 Uh, I look back at, oh God,
Speaker 2 00:24:47 It's okay. Like
Speaker 0 00:24:49 <laugh>, I feel, I feel I, no, it's not okay. I feel embarrassed when I think about it. But that's part of these honest conversations is is facing w facing learnings from the past. Like you said, when we look back and, and, and we learn from them, I, because I was always, this is before we had our daughter, I was always this fit, healthy, same sized person. I just thought it was easy. I really did. And
Speaker 2 00:25:16 You couldn't understand why I couldn't just go and lose
Speaker 0 00:25:19 Weight. I could not understand it. And what I missed most of all was that I was not showing you acceptance. And it like, it breaks my heart when I think about it. I did not show you acceptance the way you'd shown it to me when we met and for so many years afterwards. And when you aren't accepting someone, how on earth can they take any of what you think is loving support that is, that is related to this issue that you've clearly put out there. There's no acceptance there. I'm not accepting of you as you are. And I, in my head, I wasn't being mean. Like, I would try and say, let's do this healthy eating together, or let's go for a run together. Or I thought I was being like,
Speaker 2 00:26:04 Captains don't, don't, don't you wanna look better? Roger often
Speaker 0 00:26:06 Supportive. Well, what happened was when you would say no, of course, because you felt judged by me because I was like hammering on it. You, you would, you would push back. And so then I would get annoyed and I would say, he doesn't care. Why doesn't he care about this stuff? And I, it was this misalignment and understanding of like, the fact that it wasn't about, that we weren't sharing the same values, which is what I thought it was. It was that I was not coming from a place of non-judgment or acceptance at
Speaker 2 00:26:41 All. Yeah. And like I can say, say I, you know, I do value being healthy and being fit. Yes. But, you know, and you can always say, well, if you really valued, it would've worked harder. But, you know, it's very, there's no, there's no surprise that the last six to nine months when I've lost quite a lot of weight, I've gotten very health fit and healthy. I'm eating better, I'm exercising more, I'm feeling better in myself, was correlated to some development leaps with our little girl and life getting, life's never easier. It just gets a bit different mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, you know, us getting a bit more support that I then was able to go and, and do this stuff. And also it was, it was me realizing that while I am getting older, I'm heading towards 40. I need to, I want to get healthy so I can do things when I'm older that I, that if I continue down this path, I won't be able to do.
Speaker 2 00:27:31 But definitely pretty much at, at a higher level, it was, you were making me feel really bad about myself. And when you feel bad about yourself, you're less likely to actually go and make the positive changes. And then I know we sort of went past the media, but it's like, I feel, I wanna say something about Lizzo and Lizzo cops at heart, especially from a lot of commentators who are very fit, you know, like the Andrew Tates. I know Joe Rogan goes to town on a and a, um, does he? Yeah. And I'm a big fan of Rogan. Um, and look, this is the beauty, but not that part. Look, this is the beauty we can actually take. We can look at something, say Joe Ro or Jordan Peterson says, and go, that's great. And then look at other things they say. And so that's not so great coming.
Speaker 2 00:28:09 Not they're a person, right? There are lots of that. The beauty of being, um, an adult, you get to understand that we all have absolutely different opinions on different things and you take what you need from it and you dismiss what you don't or you like take it on board and go, Hey, that's, that's not for me. But he says, well, you know, you know, Lizzo comes out with this body positive attitude even though she's obese. And well, you know, she shouldn't be going out to young women or other people saying you should be happy with your body. But I think he's just missing the point is that 100%, you know, there is health issues with being overweight, but at the same time, if you make people feel crap about their bodies, they, it's so hard, so hard to make the change. And I know that personally.
Speaker 2 00:28:49 And so the more positive I feel about myself and my life and my direction and my body, the more empowered I will feel to make the change. And whether Lizzo wants to or is going to make a change as she gets older for her health, that's a completely up to her. And I love the fact of how I love it when she's out there in a, like a tiny little g-string and, uh, bikini and just rocking out. So good. I love it. Wed, oh, I just think it's so cool. For me that's a positive. That's about body positivity in the right way. She's not saying that everyone, you know, please, you know, be have a body shaped like me. She's just saying doesn't matter your shape or size, be positive. And that will give you more control of who you are and what you wanted to do. And when you come to those decisions about where you want to go and how you want to, how you want to be, um, you'll have more agency over yourself to do it. So that's just something I
Speaker 0 00:29:44 Want to, this such is such an important point. And before I, before I piggyback off that Lizzo thing and, and, and talk a bit about that, I just wanna say I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry for the way
Speaker 2 00:29:54 No, you
Speaker 0 00:29:54 Apologize. I treated you <laugh>. I do, I absolutely do. You have
Speaker 2 00:29:59 Apologized
Speaker 0 00:29:59 Before. I know, but it's really important. Yeah, that behavior. I look back now and like you said, there's not much point in wishing it was different because it's done. The most important thing I can do is learn from it and provide a safe space for you to talk about it without me being defensive and upset and thinking about myself. And I'm not at all in this space. I just feel, I feel sad that it happened to you and I feel hopeful that I am making you safe enough that you can talk about it and teach me how I can do better.
Speaker 2 00:30:35 Yeah. And since we are talking about relationships that's like, this is actually, this is literally what we're talking about. How, how how it can impact the relationship Yeah. And how each other you can feel safe and how it can also impact whether you want to be intimate with your partner or not, about how they you feel about your body, how you think they feel about your body and how they actually feel about your body.
Speaker 0 00:30:56 Absolutely. That's, that's one of the things that comes up. But can I just touch on Lizzo, sorry, before I, upon the intimacy thing, because there's actually research about around, um, intimacy and, and body image
Speaker 2 00:31:09 Hit me with some knowledge.
Speaker 0 00:31:10 So j just before I touch on that, sorry, I'm just gonna go back to Lizzo because I just think what you said about Lizzo is going to hit differently for different people. Even this week, talking to someone about this show, the first thing they raised with me, well what if your partner is unhealthy? And we're not exactly what you said. This isn't a show about whether your partner is unhealthy or not. This is a show about body image. This this show is about body image and understanding what that does in relationships and from a personal perspective, right. Because the personal perspective also impacts the relationships. What do we know? What has the research told us? The research has told us that shame is not a motivator. You will not be motivated by shame unless, I mean there is, let me get this. There are the anomalies,
Speaker 2 00:31:57 There's the goggins,
Speaker 0 00:31:58 There's the Goggins of the world. Again, another person who'd take or leave like bits from him. He's an absolutely incredible human in the, he's a beast. He pushes himself to amazing limits and good on him. He has a tragically traumatic childhood. I don't know whether he would say tragically because we are what we are as a result of these things. But all due respect, whatever way he would phrase it,
Speaker 2 00:32:17 He acknowledges it was really
Speaker 0 00:32:19 Traumatic. Well, he writes about it, he talks about the unbelievably horrific abuse in endures. You've read his book. I've read his book. I I loved his book because I'm like you, I can take bits from different people and they feed the different bits of me. I am not all soft and cushy. I'm not all hard and difficult. I'm little bits of both. Parts of me are really hard and disciplined and I love that part. Part of him and parts of me are really soft and empathic. And he's not gonna be the person I'm gonna read when I wanna build that side of me. But I digress. He's the person who can probably source motivation from shame. He's an anomaly. That's not normal. Most people do not source motivation from shame. So,
Speaker 2 00:32:56 Because if your partner has the chinup record <laugh> Yes. May maybe they will.
Speaker 0 00:33:01 He has the That's right. The international record for the most chin-ups, you know. Okay. We're a former, he's digging from seal somewhere different to the rest of us. Yeah. Navy seal, army something like he's the, anyway, he's the exception. He's an exception. Not exactly. Thank you. I just wanted to say that because I think people are going to be going well, exactly what you said. Liz o's unhealthy. She's promoting, she's not, she's so super healthy. She's promoting the fact that to start making change, if that's what you wanna do, to start anything, just to live well mentally, that's what this comes back to. To live well mentally, you cannot be hating yourself. You cannot be judging yourself to live well mentally. You have to come from a place of acceptance and love first.
Speaker 2 00:33:46 You cannot make your partner healthier, but you can support them with their body image, which might in the future give hundred percent. Give them more agency and control. Yes. To, to go out and be a healthier person.
Speaker 0 00:34:02 Yes. This is the big learning between you and me because I thought I could make you healthier. I
Speaker 2 00:34:09 Couldn't and I did to be healthier. Like I, I, I freely admit, I I I drank what I want. I ate what I want. I didn't exercise enough, I didn't take great care of my body. And I'll and it was showing as I was getting older. Yep.
Speaker 0 00:34:22 Yep. You said it. I'll just leave those as your words. Yep, yep. But I thought I could impact you to be healthier. That was my, that was my goal, not my goal was not to show you acceptance, non-judgment and love, unconditional love, which would have significantly improved your mental health and your relationship with yourself. And from that standpoint, then if you wanna make change, it's gonna be a whole lot easier. And I'm not saying you have to or you should. What I'm saying is if you provide the tools for non-judgment, for love, all of those things, then if there is a health need for change to be made, it's going to be far more likely for that person. Cuz you were never ever gonna make changes because of what I said. That's what I didn't understand. You were only ever gonna make changes when you wanted
Speaker 2 00:35:11 To. It had to come from within. Yeah. And to get to a place where, you know, and again, I'm taking accountability where it had to come from within myself to want to make a change, but it provided a very safe and supportive foundation when you were really like, you know, Bubba, I understand, you know, it's how hard it is because it's stroke because you are having your own issues with body image. Like again, after your pregnancy and you know, when we were coming back from Japan and renovating our house and doing all that stuff, you were, I guess you had a bit more empathy to what I'd gone through. And then all of a sudden you were like, hey, like we are in this together, I get it. Um, I'm not gonna judge you. I love you no matter what. And then I thought, well, yeah, actually I feel that makes me feel pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 00:35:55 And you know, I think how I was thinking about how ways that we can, I can benefit the team is that, you know, I need to be around for a long time. Her daughter might need to support for the rest of her life and I've gotta make sure I'm around as long as possible. I wanna make sure I can give her piggyback rides in the shopping center when she's 12 <laugh>. You know, and that's something, you know, that, that, that means, means a lot to me. And then, you know, most recently is that we have a, we've prioritized a key value of ours, which is being healthy. So being well, being well and being, um, yeah. Being well and, and and for our own health. And that comes in all different shapes of, of forms mentally healthy, physically healthy. Yeah. So we can be there for our daughter in the future, but also, so while we're trying to get a fledgling business off the ground, that we're able to put our best foot forward with that, with the time constraints we always have on ourselves.
Speaker 0 00:36:46 So, jumping back, sorry to what you were saying about the intimacy. A hundred percent the research suggests that levels of sexual satisfaction and likelihood to engage in sexual activity. So how satisfied you are and how much you want to have sex is linked to your body image. So the more, uh, negative your body image is, the less likely, uh, you are to want to have sex and the less satisfied you will be with sex. This is what research is saying. And it, I mean, it makes a lot of sense high level from a, I think about, you know, our younger years when I felt so safe with you and I mean, you're young, you're gonna explore more then. But not to get
Speaker 2 00:37:29 Too, what are you saying, Kim? That we had a lot of sex when we were young. <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:37:34 I wouldn't have said it out loud, but you, I was very comfortable in that space. And after we had our little girl and my body had changed, I definitely wasn't as comfortable in that space, which was a new thing for me.
Speaker 2 00:37:50 If I had a sex graph and I plotted you and I so plot
Speaker 0 00:37:53 The graph and
Speaker 2 00:37:54 I plotted you and I on that graph,
Speaker 0 00:37:56 Need to see that drop off.
Speaker 2 00:37:57 There'd be a correlation between a strict correlation between how we felt about our bodies and the number of times that we were intimate with each other. Uh, it, it is clear cut. And so if you are a guy or a girl and you are sitting there wondering, you know, perhaps why you're not have making love, um, or being intimate as often, you know, I think it's important. You maybe have a look at yourself and wondering, well how, how am I, what am I doing to support my partner with how they feel about their body? Um, how do I feel about my body and how am I bringing that into the relationship? And then maybe, you know, maybe that's where you can go and start having a chat about them. Not about sex. Hey, we're we're not having sex. Can we talk about about bodies? But literally talking about your bodies and getting to the root cause of it. Yeah. Again, a d a dangerous topic, but
Speaker 0 00:38:41 Well the, the other thing was the research shows the converse of that as well. That when body image increases that uh, sexual connectedness does as well. So
Speaker 2 00:38:52 Graph goes up,
Speaker 0 00:38:53 The <laugh> graph goes up, <laugh> yes. Everything goes up. Uh, so yeah, uh, that's a really important part. So I guess, you know, just sort of bringing that back to what we are seeing, you know, we've talked about a lot of things today, but what we are seeing in this space, when we experience negative body image in a relationship personally, uh, or personally as a result of a partner's engagement with us, the impacts on the individual and the relationship are severe. The impacts mental health. I haven't even touched on that, sorry, I should have talked more. I, I think I touched on it, but the research all shows higher prevalence of anxiety and depression in people with negative body image. So it impacts mental health, which we know lower mental health, lower connectedness in relationships. It's very hard to connect with others when we're not feeling good in ourselves. Uh, it impacts sexual connectedness, intimacy in the relationship. It obviously erodes trust between the partners. Uh, all of these are really serious issues. And as I've said from the beginning, incredible opportunities if this is happening for you in your relationship, to improve your relationship, to have a higher quality of connection with your partner, to grow your intimacy in the relationship. And obviously they're all self-fulfilling prophecies. The more you do that, the better the relationship, the better the relationship, the more you'll do those
Speaker 2 00:40:20 Things. I, I love how you flip this on its head where we've got these body issues out there. This is can be a real problem in relationships. It's like, hey, well where there's a problem, I think maybe that's something we can think differently and go, there's a way to I guess, work with your partner to maybe not solve but work through that problem together. A way to bond, uh, a way to start feeling safe. Well, well if my partners wants to talk about his or her body issues and be vulnerable, then maybe I'm okay to start talking about it with him. Which makes me feel that I'm actually safe to, to say I have body issues. Cause we're not saying don't have body issues, we're saying
Speaker 0 00:41:01 Great
Speaker 2 00:41:02 Point. We're saying like, be open and honest with each other and create a space to talk about it. Yes. And I think guys, if you can be vulnerable enough, you know, to talk about your body image issues and again, there's a good chance that your partner, your wife or, or you know, I'll say female just cuz from my perspective, um, has had body issues in the past or has them now, that that'll just create a, a space that, that vulnerability where she'll feel safe enough to maybe open up to you and then she'll start to go, Hey, this is, this is something really special that I'm able to talk to him about this. I can unpack it a little bit with him. And you know, that's something we can connect a way we can connect
Speaker 0 00:41:45 Well when we are vulnerable with someone and they hold that vulnerability with acceptance, love, compassion, it reaches a next level in the connection. Because some people never get that in their life with anyone. Mm. It's the greatest thing on earth to feel like you are unconditionally loved. I mean, I said that the impact it had on me was life changing. So when you hold that space as a partner, male or female for your other partner, when you hold that space to have those vulnerable conversations from a place of acceptance and non-judgment, remembering what we've spoken about today, that there is no one except maybe David Goggins, who is motivated by shame. When you hold that space from acceptance and non-judgment and love and kindness for your partner, understanding how deeply important these issues are, how vulnerable they make us, you can have a massive impact on your relationship.
Speaker 0 00:42:54 And I guess to your point, Roger, that's what we believe in at living the team life. We believe that everything, it's not about focusing, staying focused and entrenched in the problem. We're not problem focused people. We are forward focused people. How do we take what's happening and find a path forward for a better relationship, for the best relationship we can have? And that's what we've tried to do today is offer ways, offer an understanding. First we have to understand what's happening, but then offer a path forward. See the opportunity and the potential here for a greater relationship for the greatest relationship.
Speaker 2 00:43:38 Yeah, I think if you can, if you can have a bit of self-compassion, if you can be
Speaker 0 00:43:44 Part Can I jump on that one? Sorry, just quickly, cuz I, there you go. I I mean we'll start to wrap this up, I guess, and, and give people a few clues. We've done that throughout the show about ways they can build positive body image in individually and in within the relationship. And a, a really great starting place is self-compassion. And I'm a huge proponent of this. Uh, I talk about it quite a lot. Dr. Neff from America is, um, an excellent resource if, um, if people are looking for Kristen Neff, sorry, if people are looking for resources on this. And self-compassion is basically about learning how to give yourself the same love and care as you would with someone you really cared for rather than all those. I mean, we know so much of the stuff that we are dealing with is, is our own thoughts and and beliefs in our mind.
Speaker 0 00:44:33 Uh, and if we start practicing more self-compassion. And that's been a huge thing for me. It's one of the reasons I wanna jump on it because I'm practicing a lot of self-compassion around my body these days. Uh, I've had a really good sort of 18, 24 months since we really got focused on my wellbeing rather than how I looked. Um, and being healthy. And then just practicing in myself saying to myself, when I see something come up that's like a really harsh judgment or really negative thought, I say, I love you, it's okay. And I don't judge myself for having that thought either. I give myself a lot of love, you know, a lot of kindness, softness, compassion for having the thought even cause I don't wanna layer my awareness of the thought with some, with some judgment. So self-compassion. The other part of self-compassion that's so powerful is that when we practice the self-compassion, we are rewiring the brain not to show judgment first. And when we do that, we also offer that in relationships with others. So the more self-compassion you give to you, obviously yourself, it's self-compassion. The more compassion you give to yourself, the more you are training your brain, which is really the key to life training your brain to be compassionate first and non-judgmental, which is really gonna help in your relationship, especially around body image. Because as we've explained throughout the show, that's super powerful.
Speaker 2 00:45:51 Yeah, we talked about, um, non-judgment in the Harry and Megan episode and, and you know, and self, self-compassion is the same thing where it's about giving yourself a break but not letting yourself off the hook That I like to, to say it is that, you know, yes, strive to strive to be better, strive for growth, but life's tough. Being too hard on yourself is not gonna get you anywhere unless you've, you're a Goggins. So give yourself a bit of a break, be kind to yourself. And if you can do that, that's when you can start believing in yourself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's when you believe in yourself, you then believe that you've got capability to do things, to make changes. Changes are hard. And again, we always say the more you can do that, the more that you can have, give yourself a break, have self-compassion, then you'll start to believe. Then you'll see you've got the capability to do something, then you'll be willing to make the change or do do more. Um, and again, we're not saying you should, if you've got body images, you should change. We're just saying give yourself a break. And then if there are things that you do want to change about them, you'll be in a better place to understand, well, do I really, do I really want to change? Or what, what's behind all this? What's the root cause of how I'm feeling?
Speaker 0 00:47:10 Hmm. That, so like two massive parts, aren't they? That we, we get the individual benefit and the opportunity to do to, to grow from self-compassion individually. And we also get the couple benefit where we are training our brain to engage our partner in a more compassionate way, which is really powerful in the the, in building the connection and trust in the relationship. Um, which, you know, jumping to the next part I guess, of um, how else you can grow your, um, po pos body positive. I'm not gonna get into the semantics of whether you wanna call it positivity or not. I know that there are issues with that word. I, I don't particularly love it, but it's, it's a word that's used a lot out there. So that's why I'm
Speaker 2 00:47:54 Calling. And sometimes if we can get, if we try to get too much of the detail and, and, and we're mucking around the semantics, we lose, we lose sort of like the message or what we're really trying to achieve behind it.
Speaker 0 00:48:04 Yeah. And a lot of the really incredible big players out there who are in the body image movement, use that word. So I'm, I'm just gonna use that word for now. Apologize.
Speaker 2 00:48:14 Look at the intent,
Speaker 0 00:48:15 Reminder someone. It's a, yeah. So, uh, another thing if we wanna be looking at positive body image or building body image, um, esteem, um, is to obviously what you've said, rod, talk openly without judgment. So not only talk openly without judgment for your partner, but also don't judge others. If you judge others in front of your partner, you are sending a message to them that that's where you see worthwhileness, that's where you see value in a human. And an it does not show acceptance, it does not show non-judgment. And so we have to be really mindful of the comments we make about others and ourselves in front of our partner.
Speaker 2 00:48:57 Oh yeah. And, and by others you don't just mean like, you know, um, Sue and John next door, you can actually be talking about, uh, uh, someone on a movie you're watching together, someone in a magazine watching some sport, um, or you're just driving down the street and you see someone and you make a comment on them. What it's doing is it's building up a history. It's building up a library of, uh, judgment. Yep. And your, and how, how, if you do it often enough, how can the other person not go well if that's how they see other people. Yes. They see me the most. Um,
Speaker 0 00:49:30 How
Speaker 2 00:49:31 Safe am I? How safe am I? Cuz they're mo most likely thinking the same thing about me. And especially if they've already got a tendency to feel negatively about their body, yes. They're gonna, they're gonna grasp at things which even they might not be there. You are showing that they could be.
Speaker 0 00:49:46 Yes, a hundred percent. So that has been a massive conversation,
Speaker 2 00:49:52 Raj. It's, it's been a big one. And look, if we haven't covered off everything, it's not, it wasn't our intention, um, this is, I think this was ended up being a two podcast series. If we have upset anyone, by the way we're talking about it, please again, understand our intent. Our intent was to talk about things that probably don't often enough get talked about, especially not by a husband or wife, couple or, uh, uh, any couple. Um, because they are, it is hard and we're hoping that maybe if you took anything from it, is that the conversation is possible.
Speaker 0 00:50:24 Conversation is possible. Absolutely. And the potential, when you have that conversation, when you offer that non-judgment and that acceptance and improve body image for the individuals and across the partnership, the potential for the relationship is incredible. The research tells us, you know, if you go negative, you're going to impact the relationship negatively. If you go positive, the converse happens, you're going to impact the relationship positively. It's a very simple equation. So we hope that today by seeing us display our vulnerability and talk very openly about our own past, that we have empowered you to go ho go away and do that in your own relationship and to think about what's happening in your own relationship and to see the potential because we've experienced firsthand how impactful it can be.
Speaker 2 00:51:13 Yeah. Be vulnerable, be compassionate, and that'll help you to be strong. You are amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
Speaker 0 00:51:25 Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living, the team life, relationship, insights and conversations, head over to Kim and rod.com where you can find all the show notes as Well as tons of other relationship
Speaker 2 00:51:35 Goodies. And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and it'll make us really happy.
Speaker 0 00:51:43 Until next time, keep on living the team life.
