Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Judgment. We all do it. And Harry and Meghan are international symbols for our dogmatic belief that we are somehow entitled to judge others. But how does this actually service Today? We're digging into what judgment is and how damaging it can be to relationships, and we're also taking a bit of a different look at Harry and Meghan's relationship through the team lens, exploring all the ways these two, in fact, embody the values of being a team and having each other's back. Hey, we're Kim and Rod, and we're here to show couples how to get the best out of their relationship so they can start living their dream life together.
Speaker 2 00:00:39 We're a West Aussie couple who are living the life of our dreams. We don't entertain the word should we think about the future as a field of possibilities, and we'll let joy be our compass.
Speaker 1 00:00:47 We've taken the simple idea of working as a team and applied it to our marriage, and it's been a game changer, allowing us to work out what truly lights us up in life and to go after it together.
Speaker 2 00:00:57 From living in snowy Japan to starting our own house stripping business, we've achieved some big dreams, and most importantly, we feel fulfilled and are having the most fun we've ever
Speaker 1 00:01:05 Had. Pick conversations from inspiring couples, thoughts from relationship experts and tales from our own lives as we help you to gain the wisdom and skills you'll need to turn your relationship into a real team.
Speaker 2 00:01:15 These are relationship conversations for real people buy real people. So sit back, get comfort from whatever tickles you pickle, and enjoy living the team life.
Speaker 1 00:01:31 Today's episode is about Harry and Megan. I'll try and say Megan correctly. Megan? Megan. Megan. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2 00:01:40 Megan. Megan. I think Megan in the state's. Megan here.
Speaker 1 00:01:43 Ah, okay. All right. Well, let's try and do right by old Megs. It's, uh, Harry and Megan, and I'm kind of excited for this episode because we watched, we both watched their Netflix series recently, and we sat out the front afterwards and really reflected on, uh, what had been happening for them and how they came out in the, in the Netflix series. And something that really struck both of us was this sense that they've been so mercilessly judged as part of this whole process. And we really had quite a deep conversation about that judgment. And it brought up for us the ideas around judgment and how damaging they can be when we don't, we don't have awareness of our own, um, natural proclivity to judge and, and how damaging it's been for those two. Uh, so yeah, we decided we would do a podcast talking about that judgment and also talking about their beautiful relationship.
Speaker 2 00:02:53 Yeah. Um, not to skip to the, the juicy part, um, right away, but we do believe Megan and Harry are a great team. But yeah, first we're focusing on non-judgment. And we live in a very judgemental world these days. Everyone has the ability to broadcast and receive just like a television station, like when we grew up. And I think, you know, with great power comes from great responsibility. And I think we're pretty irresponsible as sometimes. And I know definitely I have to catch myself sometimes when I'm looking at a, a footy player or, or a celebrity or something along, along, along those lines and, and catch myself of maybe, or maybe my thoughts are a bit judgy. I'm not someone who sort of, you know, tweets or messages on, on stories like people used to write into the editor. Now you can see the common sections of YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, or, or even just online stories, and see how judgmental people are. And that's before you even get to the stage of someone being a troll.
Speaker 1 00:03:54 Mm. So let's sort of maybe unpack what, what judgment is a little bit then. Uh, for people wondering, judgment is about projecting our own version of reality, which is reality. Our, whatever we believe reality is, is to us, but we project that onto someone else. So we don't give them the freedom and the space to be themselves. We project all our own beliefs, uh, all our own moral codes onto these people. And so when we, when we do that, when we project onto people our own beliefs and moral codes, we devalue their own sense of self, their own individualism, who they are. And we close off a lot of opportunity for connection, learning, growth, all of those things. And one of the key indicators that you are judging someone is that you'll label them. It's the probably the most common way people will be able to become aware of their own judgment of others. They will notice themselves labeling either in their mind or even outwardly. She's such a, he's such a, and, and really at its core that is judgment.
Speaker 2 00:05:04 Yeah. And I think a lot of that comes from, I guess, our own insecurities. And I know you'll talk a bit about this, but you know, there, there's the old saying that you shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glass house. And I'm, I'm seeing a lot of pebbles coming towards, uh, Megan and Harry, and I, you know, I just put the comment out there as like, you know, yes, people obviously believe they have the right, because he's a prince and she's a celebrity. And so the two of the most recognizable people in the world to have their say on it. And, you know, sometimes I believe, well, okay, maybe there's a bit of a social contract out there where you do get to have your say. Um, but that doesn't mean you have to say terrible and mean things. And I think a lot of the time it can come from someone's own insecurity and they're just projecting
Speaker 1 00:05:51 Completely agree. When we look at Harry and Megan specifically and how judgment has played out around them, there is this cultural mindset that it's fine for us to judge certain people. Whilst we might not be as okay with judging ordinary people, <laugh> for some reason, when someone is really successful or is very privileged and the royals really fit into that category, we feel like we have some sense of, um, righteousness towards judging them. And it, it, it really speaks to the whole idea of being able to judge someone. It it removes the idea that first and foremost, the royals are humans. First and foremost, we should treat them with humanity. And for some reason, with the royals, it's, it's judgment on steroids. And it's one of the reasons we wanna talk about it today cuz it really shows judgment. It's, it's like magnified, right? It's a really great example of how judgment shows up in a really big way because the whole world is judging them. And this sense of this sense of being allowed to judge them, removing their, their person, their who they are, and judging them simply for an expectation or a role or an idea we have in our minds of who they should be. It's a really sad way of living in a world with other humans. It it really takes away the humanity in the situation.
Speaker 2 00:07:35 Yeah. And I think, you know, we, we sit there and we judge their actions. We judge the royal family, we judge Harry and Megan, we judge the fact that they're making a hundred million reportedly via Netflix to talk about their story. And a lot of their story is, um, arguably flinging a bit of mud back at the, the firm, which is the name that all the royal actually call the, the monarchy. And, and the truth is that I, I believe that the monarchy in general in the UK very much has this relationship with the press. Um, and, and they say this where it's, it's a bit of give and take. And I think they also believe that the firm believes that any press is good press. They have to stay relevant. Now Harry and Megan themselves, they're sitting there going, well, you know, fr from Harry's point of view.
Speaker 2 00:08:23 And I think that's a great thing to talk about is that, um, maybe one of the first things we do when we want to start looking at how we can't, cannot judge someone is to be a bit empathetic mm-hmm. And have empathy mm-hmm. Is that, you know, Harry's grown up since the death of his mother, Diana, through virtually the fault of the paparazzi and the media, um, with that sort of hanging over him his whole life. And so he has a distaste for the media. He, he wants to protect his wife, they want to protect each other, but that also gives them the right to go and make some money on, on. Conversely, on the other side, like I actually have no problem with them monetizing who they are and their relationship.
Speaker 1 00:09:03 Well why should you <laugh>? It's not your world. They're not, they're not you. That's what blows my mind in all this is why is it up to us? We all live within obviously different cultures. There are different rules, but our culture is very similar to theirs. Right? So within this culture that we live in with them, that we have the same rules. They, they are, yes, they were born with privilege. And, and I understand that for, for people that can be feel very difficult when you see people being given advantage in life and you feel like they're still winging. I think that's where a lot of this comes from. But I would say where you can try and strip that away and see them as the humans. And I think that's what Harry has been begging people to do. He's saying, and that's why he came out and he did the Netflix special with Megan, but also he's come out with his book Despair, which I'm just finishing now. And it's, it's brilliant. A a absolutely love
Speaker 2 00:10:13 It. You've got a lot of empathy for him.
Speaker 1 00:10:14 Yeah. Because he's a really empathic person himself. And listening to him, all he's doing is being vulnerable and sharing who he is as a human and how he's struggled his whole life since his mother passed away at the very young age of 12. How could, how could anybody not struggle in those formative years losing a parent?
Speaker 2 00:10:34 And just because he's a prince doesn't mean it hurts any less.
Speaker 1 00:10:37 It's ridiculous to think that it, you know, he had this massive trauma, very young in life, absolutely massive. And he's just saying, I struggled. I have struggles. I, you know, I don't wanna be subjected to all of the press, but I still need to make money for my family and I still have ambitions and I still have dreams and goals. And for some reason, because he's not doing exactly what we expected of him, the world feels like it's justified in saying, Uhuh, if you're not gonna do what we expect, you are not allowed to do anything. We are gonna tell you what you can do. And I just find that, so do you know what? I find it really unfair and really hypocritical because when anyone comes at us individually to judge us, we say, don't judge us. Don't tell me what to do. And yet Harry's asking for just the simple same idea, just don't judge me. That's all he's saying. And yet people won't, they won't afford him that.
Speaker 2 00:11:34 Look, as I said earlier, there is a bit of a social con like we, we live in a word of social contracts, right? And there is a bit of a social contract as if you put yourself out there and then you monetize it. Especially y you sort of are putting yourself up there to be taken down. Now that doesn't mean it's right. In fact, it's extremely unfair. And I often see, I often see, uh, on television or in news articles when someone's out there going and having a crack espe. I feel we do this in Australia a lot, we're so quick to want to tear them down and bring them down instead of actually sitting there and going, Hey, do you know what, like good on you for going out there having a crack and being different, not doing something everyone else would do. And in the end, like Harry and Megan have done something very different. Again, it might look from afar that they're privileged cuz he's a prince and she's a celebrity, but they don't feel any less, they don't hurt any less. Um, and who are we? We're not the gatekeepers of happiness. We can't say you can be happy, you can't be happy because of your privilege or where you came from.
Speaker 1 00:12:37 I think the social contract is the big, or the, as you call it, the social contract to say that cultural mindset, whatever you wanna call it. I think that's a big part of the picture that I definitely wanted to discuss today. Because really, I, I would just ask everybody listening today to do what I do when I notice myself judging or am even considering this idea of judgment, is ask yourself how it serves you to judge another human. What does it do for you when you judge another human that's
Speaker 2 00:13:09 Jarring to, to even think about that it's so jarring. And then, then you have to take the next step, which is actually looking at yourself.
Speaker 1 00:13:17 It is, that's right. Because for me, judgment does not serve me in any way. It gives me a moment of reprieve from my own insecurities because I feel like I've put myself above someone in some way that I'm somehow better than them with this idea that, that being better than them is what I would somehow want in the world. Why would I want to be better than my fellow man? That doesn't even make sense. Why would I not wanna lift up my fellow man? Um, but once that passes, I mean, that is instantaneous. I actually feel worse. I feel worse because it's brought me nothing judging someone else. What, what have I achieved by doing that?
Speaker 2 00:14:02 No. Well, you, you haven't really achieved anything except maybe some short term relief. And again, if you really did look inside, you might, inside you might actually see a bit of shame. And I know, uh, Ryan Ho, um, who does the Daily stoic, he really talks a lot about how stoicism it was be be kinder to people than you are on yourself. You know? And I think, you know, I I think in some ways it was meant to like, you know, be be tough on yourself in terms of, you know, making sure you push yourself, but be, be kind to people. Give them a break. You don't know their lives. You know, we talk a lot about this is that you don't know what's going on behind closed doors. And it goes both ways where just like we might look at the neighbors in their new car, or, you know, they've just gone on a holiday to Italy, we don't know what's happening behind closed doors on, on the converse. And so again, judgment often comes with a lot of assumptions, which can be really dangerous.
Speaker 1 00:14:54 Yeah, absolutely. And when we think about judgment, one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this magnified version of judgment today was really to think about it from a relationship perspective and think about the damage it does to the relationship. Yeah. And I guess what we are just talking about now is bringing up, for me, one of the big things that judgment does for a relationship is it reduces connectedness. Because when you are busy judging someone, you are not finding common ground with them. You are not finding any sort of, uh, empathy for them, understanding for them. What you're doing is actually disconnecting yourself. You're saying that's not aligned with me. I'm judging you for that. And in a relationship that's very damaging, it's very hard for you to grow your connection when you are busy judging someone for those reasons. Well,
Speaker 2 00:15:48 How can that other person, the other person in your relationship feels safe when they feel that anything they're going to do might have a consequence of even as simple as your absolutely. As your, not not hatred, but you know, you are disdain. Yeah. Um, or you know, or such
Speaker 1 00:16:05 A good word. And I think, thank
Speaker 2 00:16:07 You <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:16:09 You know, I love my words. Disdain is, is actually what judgment is. And it, it's,
Speaker 2 00:16:17 Oh, it's such an awful
Speaker 1 00:16:18 Word. It's a dirty,
Speaker 2 00:16:19 I dunno why you like that
Speaker 1 00:16:20 Word. It's, that's why I love it. Because a word that captures what people are actually doing, it being disdain really hits home as to how corrosive judgment is. Being disdainful is corrosive. It does not help anything. It, it erodes away whatever you have there. And that's exactly what judgment does in a relationship. It erodes away your sense of security, your sense of safety, your trust in the person, your connectedness with them, all of those things. But the other half of that that's so important is not only does it impact your relationship and we'll, we'll talk a little bit more about this later, but it impacts your relationship with yourself when you constantly judge someone else, you are reinforcing, we are training our own brains every single day. We'll talk a lot about that in this podcast because once you understand that I am the biggest teacher of my, to myself, I am my own teacher, no one teaches my brain more than myself, get caught in a loop thinking about how that works. But as a result, whatever you put out, you know, people say whatever you put out in the world is what you get back. Yeah. It's actually what you put out in your own brain is what you get back. So if you are busy judging others, you can guarantee that brain is learning how to judge yourself twice as fast.
Speaker 2 00:17:41 Yeah. And it becomes a subconscious practice. Absolutely. After, after a while, after doing it again and again and again. And that's super dangerous for your long-term mental health. And you know, maybe a partner won't be sticking around to help you out with that. That either because you've been so judgemental of them.
Speaker 1 00:17:55 Well, it's also cyclical, right? If you judge someone else, the brain learns to judge you more, you judge yourself more. And then you're getting caught in that really sad negative spiral of, if I have those negative thoughts, you know, I'm on behave negatively, that's gonna reinforce those negative thoughts, feelings, it's all gonna come back around in a circle. So you literally, you'll get stuck in a loop of negative thoughts, feelings, emotions, and, and it permeates every part of your life.
Speaker 2 00:18:23 Well, conversely, if you can work into an area with your partner of non-judgment, then you then receive some great benefits, including self-compassion, et cetera. And, uh, take us through some, this is your area.
Speaker 1 00:18:38 Oh, okay. <laugh>. Is that because I'm the least judgmental?
Speaker 2 00:18:41 Oh, uh, yes. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:18:45 No, no, you're a hundred percent right. Um, the benefits of, so non-judgment is a term I love to use because it's part of mindfulness and I'm, you know, I'm a big, um, promoter of, of mindfulness. But, um, I know that that might actually, um, raise some questions for people because they're thinking that's ridiculous. How do you not judge? Right? We are wired, so I'm just gonna cave you it quickly. We are wired to judge from a safety perspective as well. So you confuse people for a second, but bear with me. We judge, because our brain is constantly working out whether it's safe in the world. So what it's trying to do is deduce whatever information it's getting from outside and make a decision as to whether that's a safe or an unsafe way to go. Right? So we do need some form of judgment. It's when it becomes the negative toxic form of judgment that isn't related to safety. Um, that, that obviously it impacts us differently. So we're not saying don't ever judge, we're saying learn to observe yourself when judging. And I'll get to that in a little bit more, but I just wanted to caveat at it before, people are like, oh, I'm tuning out. This is non-judgment is ridiculous, it's not
Speaker 2 00:20:05 Possible. I'm judging you Kim. Cuz you're waffling on about non-judgment.
Speaker 1 00:20:08 Well, this is, this is funny when you realize that you yeah, you, it's, it's, you get caught judging the non-judging. Anyway, I'll move on. So in terms of the benefits in a relationship for, for trying to practice non-judgment or at least minimizing your judgment there, you build openness and trust. When you stop telling the other person what you're judging them for, what they're doing wrong, how it doesn't align with your view of the world, you are saying, you know what? It's safe for you to be yourself. I'm, I'm gonna let that be, I'm gonna enjoy that. I'm gonna embrace that. It also builds understanding that we came into the world, world with different views. And when we have that understanding that we came into the world with different, well came into the world with D views, we've developed different views from our own childhood and lives. It's an appreciation also of the fact that we grow by understanding other people's perspective. We grow by fostering empathy and respect for others. That's how we grow as humans. Otherwise, we're limited to only our own view, which is crazy. Why would you only wanna stay with your own view of the world? Well,
Speaker 2 00:21:17 How, how do you grow when you are only, you know, this is the, um, the theory of, uh, of the, um, confirmation bias. Yes. Where if you only look for your own opinions or people online will only look for data that backs up their claims, you can all of a sudden become very narrow minded and then you are less likely to grow internally. Yep. Just like a business is less likely to innovate if they close off a new ideas and new, um, opinions and suggestions from outside with their competitors or inside with their staff.
Speaker 1 00:21:51 A hundred percent. Um, and the other thing that practicing minimizing judgment, and I'll explain how to do that in a little bit, because they don't want people to think they need to suppress their thoughts. That's not at all, that's basically impossible. And it's not what we we're here about. Suppressing thoughts is not something we practice. We practice, uh, and, uh, becoming aware of thoughts. That's really what I was, what I was saying before. But the getting back to the benefit of minimizing judgment or letting go of judgments is, uh, reduction in hubris and self-righteousness in an inner relationship. How this shows up is that you have far more constructive conflict. Now that might sound like a funny turn of phrase, but you and I talk about how important, um, conflict can be to expressing ourselves and having a freedom and a safety and building trust and understanding of difference of opinion and ideas and all of those things. But if you bring judgment into conflict, you will very quickly distance yourself from the person you are having that conflict with. Now you can have really healthy conflict, which we have all the time this morning, yesterday. Constant Yeah. Healthy conflict.
Speaker 2 00:23:13 But, but we respect each other. Yes. And we respect each other's opinions, each other's point of views, and that we often say to each other at the end of an argument or maybe the, the back end of an argument is, Hey, I just see things differently to you. Yes. And when I feel like when we were younger that might have, that might not have worked, but today, um, because for so many years we've been practicing empathy, practicing non-judgment with just our day-to-day interactions. Very much. It's a like a, an awakening moment where you go, yeah, you're right. You do seize things differently to me. And not only that, that's okay. We do not need to agree on everything. In fact, we need to respect each other's. Right. To disagree.
Speaker 1 00:23:56 Absolutely agree. I I I think like you say, it's practice as well. And that's something that, you know, just moving towards, um, I guess giving people some, some clues on how they can start changing their approach to judgment. Um, one of the first things what you're talking about is practicing. It takes time, right? The brain learns these things over and over again. So the more you practice becoming aware, so first thing, becoming aware of your thoughts. Oh, if you see a label popping up, she's such a, I don't know, idiot, it's the scariest word I can think of on the spot.
Speaker 2 00:24:33 <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:24:34 It's a label. You are judging that person. That's when you start to know, oh, maybe I, maybe I've got some judgment going on here. So bring some awareness to that space. And once you start to bring some awareness and you practice that over again, over and over again, you'll find that your brain naturally starts bringing awareness. So your brain will start queuing you. You won't have to think, oh, am I being judgey? Your brain will just say, hang on a second. I think that this might be judgment here. So, and when we, and when we become aware of judgment, we, we don't wanna try and force it out. We don't. Judgment happens, like I said, we are biologically wired to keep ourselves safe. And judgment is, is part of that. When we become aware of it, we just wanna practice letting it go. So just saying, I, I don't need that, that doesn't serve me. I'm just gonna let that pass
Speaker 2 00:25:21 By. And, and sometimes you do just need to, like, if someone, if sometimes in the past if you'd said to me, Hey, just, just take a, take a breath. Like in the middle of a fight, I'd be like, Ooh.
Speaker 2 00:25:33 Um, but <laugh> the kettle. Yeah, the kettle. Um, uh, but at the same time, I think it is important that you yourself, you know, there's a great book chord, think fast, think slow. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so really taking a breath sometimes just allows your, your, you know, critical thinking brain to, uh, overtake your reptilian brain, which is where your, your subconscious are, um, your subconscious thoughts where over time you've built up these patterns maybe to be a bit judgey. And so what you can do is try to slow down your thinking, uh, by breathing in will help you slow your, uh, heart, right. Increase the oxygen into your body. And it might actually just give you that moment to pull back and go, Hey, my subconscious wants me to judge and bite back. Um, but my critical thinking brain, my smart brain, um, is thinking, Hey, wait a second. Um, you know, I, I love this person. I actually, it doesn't mean that much to me what they're saying. Yeah, it rolls me a little bit. But she, she, he have has every right to say what they're
Speaker 1 00:26:32 Saying. I think you, that's just a great way of explaining it. And so in those moments, taking a breath is a really great way of accessing more resources in your brain. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So really, really good example. Um, so awareness, taking a breath once you've become aware and just practicing letting the thoughts go. Not being, not not trying to force them out. And as I've said before, practicing, uh, really importantly, probably most importantly, practicing self-compassion and non-judgment with yourself. That is the fastest way and most effective way to actually retrain the brain in interactions with others as well. So,
Speaker 2 00:27:19 Yeah. And I think, you know, that really is a great segue onto how we thought, how a lot of people think about Megan and Harry and how when we first came up with the idea to have a podcast about them, that it wasn't a podcast about, oh, you know, you know, she does this, he does that, they say this, they're up against their family. It was actually a podcast about, of us taking judgment out, thinking slowly and going, do you know what it is actually that is cool about Megan and Harry? They're a team. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're a real team. They, they seem to have each other's back. They seem to, um, wanna live for each other. And I don't think there's any doubt because you can see it through the actions, let alone their words that they're putting their relationship first.
Speaker 1 00:28:09 Yeah. It was a big part of wanting to do this podcast. One, we wanted to talk about the judgment because we know that can be super helpful to people in their relationships and their lives. And two, we really actually wanted to highlight what an incredible team they are. And I can already hear the tut tuts out there. Let me just say, if you are tut tutting me right now, just watch your judgment <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:28:31 Watch your judgment. Didn't you just listen to the first 20 minutes of the podcast,
Speaker 1 00:28:35 <laugh>? No, they, their team is just amazing. And I think, um, really what under underscores that that incredible team they have is the concept that, uh, we are just huge fans of the couple bubble. And
Speaker 2 00:28:49 I, I, yeah. So Doc Dr. Stan Takin, he's a, um, a psych PhD. He's a, a clinical researcher and a clinical therapist does a lot of couples therapy. He's been doing this for decades. Um, he came up with the concept of the couple bubble. And really, um, in short, this is the concept that when two people come together in a relationship, that the relationship then perform, uh, the relationship then becomes its own identity. And that identity forms a cocoon around them and creates a safe and secure environment.
Speaker 1 00:29:25 Yeah. It's, it's actually its own entity as well. Yes. I think he talks about it's, it's its own, um, functioning thing right Outside of the two individuals. And thinking about a relationship like that is, is just so powerful because when you think of, of a relationship as having its own identity and being a separate entity from the two individuals, you start to realize that you can really nurture it like you would a fragile egg, right? Because it is really fragile, especially if you think at the beginning. I mean, you just, you you do nurture it
Speaker 2 00:29:58 A bit more than no egg and spoon races here.
Speaker 1 00:30:01 What
Speaker 2 00:30:02 <laugh>, well I I assume that's the most dangerous place for an egg is an egg and spoon race. You don't think, okay, anyway, keep, keep going.
Speaker 1 00:30:09 I guess it depends on your level of coordination anyway. Um, yeah. So thinking about it as this separate entity and having its own identity, uh, really encourages and helps you to think about how you can nurture the relationship itself.
Speaker 2 00:30:25 Yeah. And um, for those people who are already going, oh, wait a second. The couple bubble. Putting the relationship first, the relationship being its own entity, you know, what do you think a corporation is? A corporation is, uh, a corporation is introduced, p uh, uh, two business people or multiple business people will incorporate a company. So the, the company has its own identity and the corporate veil will protect the people inside it. They can then come together with a, a focus purpose and perform and do great things. And in a lot of ways it's very similar to the couple bubble. The couple bubble is created by two people come together going, we're gonna put the relationship first. This, this relationship has its own identity and we're both going to do that. We're gonna align our values, we're gonna have a joint purpose and we are going to go through life backing each o backing each other up no matter what. And the healing qualities of that, especially when it comes to the, the deep centered attachment issues we all have from, um, when we were kids and that we bring into today. And at a very high level I'll, I, maybe I'll do it just cuz I'll give the layman's level. Well, you'll probably give a very
Speaker 1 00:31:32 Good, I'm already concerned about the fact that you've blanketly labeled everybody has having, well, deep seated
Speaker 2 00:31:38 Attachment issue. This is what doc, no, sorry. Not everyone has attachment issue. No, but everyone brings, uh, issues or, uh, the how you, how you interact with the world and your primary caregivers when you're an in an infant, which we generally can't remember. So it does go into our subconscious, subconscious is how we often will then it will have an impact on how we interact with our relationships, not just our intimate relationships with our, our friends of our family and and our colleagues. It has that impact. And what Dr. Stan Tatkin is saying is that via the couple bubble, those those attachment issues, um, whether they are great or or very small can be, can be healed over time.
Speaker 1 00:32:21 A hundred percent. The, sorry, attachment theory in very basic terms is the theory that um, uh, uh, it's a theory explaining an emotional bond connection between two individuals. And, uh, what it talks about or what it theorizes is that, as you said, how you are engaged with as a child will significantly impact the way you then go on to engage the world as an adult. Um, so how you expect to receive love and how you engage in giving love, um, and how you engage in your interactions with others. And, um, yeah, so attachment theory found that those children that had nurturing and responsive attachment figures didn't have to be mom or dad, could be someone else who was close, but as long as they received nurturing and responsive behaviors consistently and, and love and, and emotions and all of those sorts of things, um, they would go on to have a secure attachment.
Speaker 1 00:33:23 And a secure attachment allows you to, uh, feel safe in the world and that allows you to explore the world further. And what Stan Takin talks about this couple bubble is just the perfect way to set up a secure attachment as an adult. Because as Rod's just saying now, even if you didn't have a secure attachment as a child, you can foster that as an adult in the right relationship. You can absolutely have secure attachment and you can mend, mend the way you engage in the world so you can heal yourself. So that some of those maladaptive ways, those those practices or those behaviors that haven't served you, you can actually let them go and, and engage in the world differently if you have had a secure attachment with your partner. So you don't have to have had it from childhood. You can absolutely make that with your partner and stand Atkins Couple bubble. It just is built to do that. It all of it focuses on building safety and security. So treating this relationship as its own entity, uh, as having its own identity. And, and in that what you're trying to do is make that space as safe and secure as possible and just naturally by making that space safe and secure, you're making the individual safe and secure. You are building secure attachment.
Speaker 2 00:34:42 And when we're safe, when we feel safe, we're more likely to get the best out of ourselves and each other. 100%, no, not, not to be nihilistic, but the world is a really tough place. And we can see at, on a large level, this has happened with Megan and Harry and we don't know what went on with their, in their childhoods. Um, you know, we're, we're not gonna guess, but we know for sure that they've got a, a secure and functioning couple bubble, which is making sure that their relationship is going to prosper and them themselves are probably going to be stronger than if they had, um, been apart individually or if they tried to live soil solo lives, um, past when they were were married. And I think one of the, the great things about that is at a micro level, if each of us can find that, that attachment to another person and be brave enough to put the relationship first, be brave enough to go, I'm gonna give my all to you if you, and not if but, and you'll give your all your all to me and we will put the relationship first.
Speaker 2 00:35:48 Harry even says it, he says, she gave up everything for me when she left Hollywood to become a princess. He then said, then I gave up everything for her when he left the royal family and now it's the two of us and now they're a team. In his own words, he said, we are a team now.
Speaker 1 00:36:06 Yeah. They're such a beautiful example of the benefits of the couple bubble and having that secure attachment because you know, Harry and his book has talked about past relationships a lot and he talks about it was really interesting. He talks about, uh, how he, he didn't know whether they could manage with the pressure of of, of being a duchess or whatever was gonna come in his life or being a royal. He, he really was questioning that in those relationships. But what struck me as I was listening cuz I'm order, order, order, bullying, his book, um, it, when I was listening to it, I realized with Megan, he actually has taken the leap away from his, his situation. So instead of just expecting her to give stuff up, it's what you just said, he's actually given a huge amount up himself because he, instead of just saying, oh, I'm worried she won't be able to give it up, they've built this secure attachment where they're both willing to make sacrifices for the relationship for one another.
Speaker 1 00:37:13 And as a result they're following their hearts, they're following their dreams the way that it works for them. Not the way, part of, part of living outside of a couple bubble, not having a couple bubble is that you prescribe to all of these social and cultural expectations. You feel like I should be at Royal, I should be doing as I'm told. Yeah, I should be following what whoever King Queen is telling me to do. That's, it's freeing, it's my role. Versus if you safe with someone else and you say, you know what, I don't wanna do that. I'm gonna make a different choice. You know, no matter what that choice is, you've got someone in your corner, not just someone the, it's like giving me goosebumps. The most important person on this earth has your back.
Speaker 2 00:37:55 You're not alone in this world.
Speaker 1 00:37:57 You are not alone my friend. And I think that brings us to like our experience of the
Speaker 2 00:38:02 Couple bubble. Lay it on me. We didn't actually go through this in our notes, so I'm actually really excited to know what
Speaker 1 00:38:07 <laugh> our experience of the couple bubble, which has been absolutely magic. If we look and we often talk about the first decade of our relationship versus the second decade of ever decade of our relationship in that first decade, we definitely ran those solo races. We did not prioritize the relationship. We did not see it as a separate entity to be nurtured and loved and fostered. And as a result we didn't feel safe to take risks. I felt, I actually remember thinking in those younger years, if my family wasn't here, not including you, cuz we weren't married, I would have no one in this world because you feel like your family generally and hopefully have your back even when you screw up royally, that's kind of their job, right? It's in the blood. But when you have a partner that you haven't built that secure attachment with, when you haven't built that beautiful couple bubble with you don't feel like you have that option. So you don't take as many risks, you don't feel safe and secure at
Speaker 2 00:39:11 All. Your world is, your world is closed in your world is closed as, and if you can just juxtapose that with how we live today and in the last eight to 10 years, how many risks we've taken and definitely risks that I know in my twenties and even early thirties, I, I probably wouldn't have taken,
Speaker 1 00:39:27 You didn't even wanna
Speaker 2 00:39:28 Leave Perth. I thought I would never leave Perth. And then when I left I was like, I don't know. I don't why, why, why would I ever want to go back? I love experiencing the world. We love Perth now we do love Perth. We've always loved perf, it's one of the best places in the world. But you know, you know, you, you had my back when I got a job opportunity in Melbourne. Um, you had to give up something that you really loved and enjoyed when you were doing your counseling. Um, when you went over for me, pretty much you went over for us and that gave me a freedom to do my best. And so I really excelled at the, the work I was in. And then when we came together and said, Hey, if, if we had no, uh, blue sky dreaming had no restrictions, where would we go? What would we do? And we said, well, we'd move to the ski fields in Japan.
Speaker 1 00:40:12 Yeah, it's, it's so crazy cuz I actually think that example of Melbourne is one of those really beautiful moments where you can see in a snippet in time that we 100% understood the couple bubble because when you got the job offer kind of at left field and it was a really good offer and you rang me and you told me, and we had not talked about moving over the east to that point at all ever. And I said to you, okay, we'll take some time, let's go through it together. And you, you showed the respect to the relationship of saying, okay, I'm gonna take the day off work. And we went to the beach and we went for a walk and we came home and we wrote down all of our fears, our pros and cons for the move for the relationship. We didn't write these down individually and
Speaker 2 00:40:58 Then share, share them what, why is it good for you? Why is it good for me? We, we actually, we had just then we, I think we'd done it before, but it was proof in the pudding that we were treating the relationship like it's own identity. Like a
Speaker 1 00:41:09 Separate cool to remember.
Speaker 2 00:41:10 That's awesome. <laugh>. <laugh> Good on us Paul.
Speaker 1 00:41:14 I know. So amazing. <laugh> No, it it does make me proud though. It really does. It makes me very proud when I think back
Speaker 2 00:41:20 To that. And again, you can see how in earlier in our our lives, we, we didn't have a couple bubble. We were just looking after the two individuals and now we have that couple, but we are happier than ever. And um, we are looking for more risk-taking and more adventures in the future
Speaker 1 00:41:38 Better. So that was today's episode of Living the Team Life Ra What's your key takeout from that episode?
Speaker 2 00:41:47 Uh, my key takeout was apart from the fact that Harry and Megan are a great team, my key takeout is the couple bubble. And that if you think of your relationship as a separate entity as having its own identity, then it's a lot easier to then treat it with respect, give it space, prioritize it. If you think of it as not just, oh, I'm doing this for them, I'm doing this for her, which should be enough anyway, but isn't always saying I'm doing this for us is a great first step to making sure that you're putting the relationship first and you're gonna get the best out of your relationship and life.
Speaker 1 00:42:27 Absolutely. I think that's an awesome takeout. And for me it's practicing the, practicing the approach of becoming aware of your judgments, especially to the self. So just starting to notice your own inner voice and when you're judging yourself, when you're being harsh on yourself, when you're labeling yourself as stupid or dumb or you know, whatever it is that is a harsh judgment on yourself, that is a judgment on yourself. Just starting to notice it. Just that very simple act of just starting to notice it. And when you notice it, not judging yourself for noticing that you're being judgemental. Whew. I know
Speaker 0 00:43:10 <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:43:14 You are amazing. You've just spent quality time on your relationship.
Speaker 1 00:43:18 Feel like you're on a roll. If you want more living, the team life, relationship, insights and conversations, head over to kim and rod.com where you can find all the show notes as well as tons of other relationship
Speaker 2 00:43:27 Goodies. And if you like today's episode, please hit subscribe or let another couple know where they can find us. It'll make them happy and it'll make us really happy.
Speaker 1 00:43:36 Until next time, keep on living the team life.
